RE: Maps for MWIF (Full Version)

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YohanTM2 -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/19/2006 9:16:28 PM)

Overall the terrian looks excellent and I think your decision on the sea boxes is great. As someone who is partially colour blind I am not sure about the shading yet. I'm not sure whether it is just going to take getting used to a bit and will be fine or if the shades are a nit too close.

Perhaps other gameers who are colour blind can comment as well?



dhatchen -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/19/2006 9:36:08 PM)

Thumbs up on the new mountains and swamp. I would, however like to see a little more colour on the clear terrain hexes. The paper maps have a light shade of green with the cultivation markings. I would rather that tan be saved for desert only. The clear needs a little more life to them. This might be difficult, I don't know, as there would be different greens for jungle, forest, swamp, and clear. Maybe just a background tinge will do.

Old Brittania is really starting to look pretty sharp.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/19/2006 10:22:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen

Thumbs up on the new mountains and swamp. I would, however like to see a little more colour on the clear terrain hexes. The paper maps have a light shade of green with the cultivation markings. I would rather that tan be saved for desert only. The clear needs a little more life to them. This might be difficult, I don't know, as there would be different greens for jungle, forest, swamp, and clear. Maybe just a background tinge will do.

Old Brittania is really starting to look pretty sharp.


My thought was to add a bit more red to the clear and some dark brown to the forest. The red is for the same reason you gave - more life. I had been wary of introducing brown into the forest because of the solid brown mountains, but they now contain enough gray/white to be distinct from a forest of green and brown.



macgregor -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/19/2006 11:11:25 PM)

These maps look spectacular! Maybe you can still improve them, but they look fine to me.



dhatchen -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/19/2006 11:35:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen

Thumbs up on the new mountains and swamp. I would, however like to see a little more colour on the clear terrain hexes. The paper maps have a light shade of green with the cultivation markings. I would rather that tan be saved for desert only. The clear needs a little more life to them. This might be difficult, I don't know, as there would be different greens for jungle, forest, swamp, and clear. Maybe just a background tinge will do.

Old Brittania is really starting to look pretty sharp.


My thought was to add a bit more red to the clear and some dark brown to the forest. The red is for the same reason you gave - more life. I had been wary of introducing brown into the forest because of the solid brown mountains, but they now contain enough gray/white to be distinct from a forest of green and brown.


Sounds good, lets see how it looks.



Glen Felzien -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/20/2006 2:06:01 AM)

Big thumbs up! The mountains are terrific. The swamps are much better and definately distinctive from the clear/forests now. True the forests may be better (very subjective) if they were a darker shade of green but I can see why this would then blend them more closely to jungle terrian. Frankly I think it looks great the way it is now.

Regarding sea boxes, I much perfer the current design you have in the screen shots. I do appriciate the desire for a more map like appearance but when playing on a map, you can pick up all the units in the each box, line them up, spread them out, arrange them anyway you want then place them back in the box. None of that is possible on a computer game. So by spliting the boxes into corresponding Ally/Axis box setup is a good solution. I am really impressed with it.

One last thing, did you modify the ports symbols? The pattern aound the circumferance? I kinda like it with the new anchor.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/20/2006 2:13:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien

Big thumbs up! The mountains are terrific. The swamps are much better and definately distinctive from the clear/forests now. True the forests may be better (very subjective) if they were a darker shade of green but I can see why this would then blend them more closely to jungle terrian. Frankly I think it looks great the way it is now.

Regarding sea boxes, I much perfer the current design you have in the screen shots. I do appriciate the desire for a more map like appearance but when playing on a map, you can pick up all the units in the each box, line them up, spread them out, arrange them anyway you want then place them back in the box. None of that is possible on a computer game. So by spliting the boxes into corresponding Ally/Axis box setup is a good solution. I am really impressed with it.

One last thing, did you modify the ports symbols? The pattern aound the circumferance? I kinda like it with the new anchor.


Ok, the mountains are getting mostly good reviews, with Patrice wanting to push the envelope a little more.

The swamps are getting good reviews too. Whether they are too similar to the forests is a mixed repsonse: some yeah, some nay.

The port symbols now look like the anchors on the marines. I haven't added the final outline in yellow to the port circle, but will do so eventually.



Neilster -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/20/2006 5:13:48 AM)

I like to mountains as they are. Any more relief and they overpower the other terrain.

Cheers, Neilster



graf spee -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 8:12:28 AM)

Hi,
I don't know this game yet, so just a quick question.
There is a guy here willing to sell me a used copy of his game(WIF final)
I will probably never play the game this way,but would it be possible for me to use the maps of it for ref.purpose or will there be to much dif.between the maps of the computergame and the maps of the original one??
Thanks
Bob



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 10:07:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee
Hi,
I don't know this game yet, so just a quick question.
There is a guy here willing to sell me a used copy of his game(WIF final)
I will probably never play the game this way,but would it be possible for me to use the maps of it for ref.purpose or will there be to much dif.between the maps of the computergame and the maps of the original one??
Thanks
Bob


WIF Final Edition (FE), when all the add-ons are included, has a half a dozen maps or so. The basic game comes with 2 European sections and 2 Pacific sections. MWIF matches the European maps perfectly (and I do not use that word lightly). The paper Pacific maps use a different scale. MWIF takes the scale from the European maps and uses it for the whole world (360 hexes around by 195 high) - a cylinder instead of a sphere. Therefore, MWIF does not match the Pacific maps, though the sea areas are as nearly identical as possible after changing the scale.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:17:41 AM)

European map has arrived![sm=00000436.gif][sm=00000436.gif][sm=00000436.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/16701/067A137CBBFC4AA2B4B1A38BDE321557.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:19:14 AM)

The Maginot line needs work

[image]local://upfiles/16701/9FA6317CEF184D1E8F26219D874CC2E2.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:21:40 AM)

The Baltic from Riga to Leningrad.

I just got the bitmaps. I have to place all the icons and names correctly.


[image]local://upfiles/16701/2C0DD0A25AC244FABE13E67D975D19CF.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:24:01 AM)

Italy. Naples is wrong but that's just data and easy to fix. I have to go over every hex in detail to see if there are any others.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/6582A15004504963935D0066F6CD3485.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:31:57 AM)

The Kerch straits in level 8 zoom (maximum). I just realized that is a 3 resource point hex inthe Ukraine.

The registration needs a bit of a touch up here, moving everything west (or the hexgrid east). For example, Evpatoria should have land to its west. Currently it is all wet.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/5BEB8806EDA74ED79B598E90B176FA4D.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:34:33 AM)

Last in the series. This is at level 2 zoom (50% for you CWIF types). The screen actually shows more hexes but I had to trim this a bit to get it under the 200KB limit for uploaded files.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/30B6A84F606C414593C9329B6722494C.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 12:00:03 PM)

Hard to say how great I feel this is !!!!!
[sm=bow.gif]
[sm=00000436.gif]



Froonp -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 12:18:39 PM)

As for the remarks :

- The desert mountains are not dark enough
- The white on the coasts is not good looking for me.
- The Names of the Sea Areas are not appearing. They should be followed with the name of the country who own the islands in that sea area if no text is written.
- No need for the (Gr) text to tell the player that the islands in the Aegian Sea (East Med) are Greek.
- Have you thought about having the coastlines being outlined with the same blue line as the WiF FE maps ? I don't know if it would make the maps more beautiful, just asking.


As for the possible errors :

- Jaffa (Palestine) should be the name of the minor port in the hex, and Tel-Aviv is the city in the hex.
- There is a lake hexside betwenn Amman (Jordan) & Jerusalem (Palestine).
- There seem to be some right shif in the graphic from the hexgrid : There should be some clear terrain southwest of Smyma (Turkey). It shows also west of Nikolayev. Post 285 shows the right shift even more even more clearly, but maybe this is what you are talking about in post 285.
- Bari coastline seems unfinished too.


As for the queries :

- Please allow the player to add names in the hex he wants through the CSV file, because I'd love to write the name of the city I live in on my MWiF game's map (and I'd love to add names for some islands who are not named on the map, you know, I love maps & geography).

Anyway, wow, what a marvel you did !!!

Can't wait for the planes & ships graphics on the counters now !!! and for the 3D effect on the counters too [:D] [;)]

Patrice



Caranorn -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 3:06:58 PM)

On my map there is no city in the Jaffa hex, just the minor port. Tel-Aviv definitelly should not appear on any WiF map (if it existed at all it was certainly smaller then Jaffa at the time).

The map looks great so far, though I do agree on the desert mountains being slightly too pale (too close to desert).



YohanTM2 -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 4:52:45 PM)

Looking killer! I wonder if you can come up with better fort symbols for the Maginot line? They look a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of the map.



Froonp -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 6:07:38 PM)

quote:

On my map there is no city in the Jaffa hex, just the minor port. Tel-Aviv definitelly should not appear on any WiF map

There were 3 printings of the WiF FE maps.
The 1996 printing, without Tel-Aviv
The 2000 printing, with Tel-Aviv, printed for PatiF, but made standard for WiF FE games sold by ADG from then on.
The 2004 printing, with Tel-Aviv, standard for WiF FE games sold by ADG from then on.
(I have a precise list of which features appeared on every maps and could pass it to you if you want)

Harry advised playing WiF FE with the new maps with the new cities (obviously not as capitals when there is another), with the new partisans number (which I believe CWiF also using), ignoring the new countries whose borders were drawn with a pink line instead of a red and a grey name (Pakistan, North / South Korea, East / West Germany, Israel...).

quote:

(if it existed at all it was certainly smaller then Jaffa at the time).

That I don't know, but I believe that city will be deletable for those who do not want it.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/BA31417619E546FB947FBF7814986E55.jpg[/image]



Glen Felzien -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 6:32:43 PM)

The terrian tiles look terrific! Super job. Certainly the desert mountain tiles could be darker but frankly I think that is very subjective because I feel they still get the message across to the player. Looking forward to see the hex grid set, all the various icons set correctly, the rail lines and of course the rivers! [:D]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 8:06:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

On my map there is no city in the Jaffa hex, just the minor port. Tel-Aviv definitelly should not appear on any WiF map

There were 3 printings of the WiF FE maps.
The 1996 printing, without Tel-Aviv
The 2000 printing, with Tel-Aviv, printed for PatiF, but made standard for WiF FE games sold by ADG from then on.
The 2004 printing, with Tel-Aviv, standard for WiF FE games sold by ADG from then on.
(I have a precise list of which features appeared on every maps and could pass it to you if you want)

Harry advised playing WiF FE with the new maps with the new cities (obviously not as capitals when there is another), with the new partisans number (which I believe CWiF also using), ignoring the new countries whose borders were drawn with a pink line instead of a red and a grey name (Pakistan, North / South Korea, East / West Germany, Israel...).

quote:

(if it existed at all it was certainly smaller then Jaffa at the time).

That I don't know, but I believe that city will be deletable for those who do not want it.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/BA31417619E546FB947FBF7814986E55.jpg[/image]


Harry was undoubtedly addressng the fact that WIF has one map for all the different add-ons. North and South Korea et al show that clearly. MWIF does not have that difficulty. It can add and delete cities and politcal boundaries at will.

Case in point, I somehow removed almost all the 'subcountries' as such from the map back in August when I first extracted the raw data from CWIF and placed it into CSV files. I discovered that fact this past week and spent some time yesterday putting the Polish Corridor, Sudetenland, Rhineland and the like back into the CSV files. Now, those have no effect on game play in MWIF product 1 but I believe they are vital for Days of Decision III. I like to keep everything tidy anyway.

But it got me thinking, should those area deliniations and labels appear when playing one of the 11 scenarios in the basic game of WIF? They add historical detail but in some eyes that might just be clutter. Something to think about, but not vital to gameplay one way or the other.

The issue of which cities to include does affect game play. While the CSV files can be edited by the players and cities added or removed more or less as the player chooses (where's Berlin?), a standard/default should be established. Unless I miss my guess, whetever MWIF uses as the default will become the defacto standard. New players to the world of WIF are unlikely to edit the map files to make them match a WIF FE official version. My personal preference on this is to definitiely exclude anything that is post-August 1945 since that is the end of the standard global war scenario (the latest end date for any of the 11 scenarios in fact).



Incy -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 9:54:21 PM)

Looks nice indeed.

Things that need work:
-rivers (and canals) (especially area around Amsterdam).
-lake hexides
-mountain hexides!
-mountain hexes too dark ?
-swamp and forest hexes to similar
-resources in mountains could be more visible
-offsets between hexgrids and graphics (check baltic north of Riga!)

Wishlist:
-weatherized graphics, especially for Snow and Blizzard
-go through lists of hexes that have been clarified in WiF and make the maps clearer. Examples: Is hex SE of Bordeaux a coastal hex? Hamburg? Can you move between Odessa and Nikolayev in 2 moves or 3 ?
-There are many cases where it's almost impossible to tell if a hexide is all-sea. Adjust coastlines to make this clearer, or even better, use different coastal graphics for invadable and non-invadable coastline!



Incy -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 10:02:59 PM)

Oh, and:
-no rail lines
-Kiel canal needs work too (all canals?)
-city and factory graphics need work! Some cities (like sevastopol) are placed in the ocean. In general, hex layout could be better thought out in hexes with multiple game objects. Would it be possible to combine City and factory graphics?. The white boxes around factory stacks don't look to good!



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 10:19:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Oh, and:
-no rail lines
-Kiel canal needs work too (all canals?)
-city and factory graphics need work! Some cities (like sevastopol) are placed in the ocean. In general, hex layout could be better thought out in hexes with multiple game objects. Would it be possible to combine City and factory graphics?. The white boxes around factory stacks don't look to good!


I posted the map as I recieved it - with no attempt to edit obvious mistakes.

I have a list of 30 or so hexes that should be coastal but CWIF didn't have them encoded that way (e.g. Naples). The lakes and rivers have yet to be placed on the map. I have their overlays so it is just a matter of writing the code to take the additional bitmaps and superimpose them on every thing else.

The CWIF version of canals can now be deleted. And the rivers too, once I get them drawn in.

I have the graphics guy working on redoing all the icons. He should be able to improve all of them (even the ones I played around with).

I am going to remove the "beach effect" completely.

Placement of icons and labels within hexes, individually - for each hex, has only been done for the British Isles. I can now do it for all of Europe.

Registration of the hexgrid is off for the eastern portion of the map. It starts drifting in Italy, doesn't start to matter until it gets to Greece, but it is very wrong by the time it gets to the Black Sea.

Your observations are very helpful. That I am aware of some of them already, doesn't matter. Additional sets of eyes reviewing the maps is an extremely good thing. I would be very distressed if the final MWIF maps have egregious errors.



c92nichj -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/21/2006 11:52:16 PM)

Maps looks great!
Some comments.
+ Port of Turku (or Åbo as it is also called) is not a port in the map I have. The hex also looks a bit strange, maybe because of the stretching effect.
+ Swamp and forest looks a little bit to similiar especially when zommed out at 50%, but even at maximum zoom it is not obvious look at the hexes around Krasnodar.
+ The white line around the coast looks a bit strange.
+ As several other mentioned the icons needs work.
+ Why are the borders around some hexes Black and around some other Blue?





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/22/2006 1:13:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Maps looks great!
Some comments.
+ Port of Turku (or Åbo as it is also called) is not a port in the map I have. The hex also looks a bit strange, maybe because of the stretching effect.
+ Swamp and forest looks a little bit to similiar especially when zommed out at 50%, but even at maximum zoom it is not obvious look at the hexes around Krasnodar.
+ The white line around the coast looks a bit strange.
+ As several other mentioned the icons needs work.
+ Why are the borders around some hexes Black and around some other Blue?


To answer your direct question. I have given the coastal hexes a blue border that matches the sea area color. It makes the hex border disappear from view between the blue of all sea hexes and the blue of coastal hexes. When I used in everywhere, I didn't like the effect inland. What I did instead was to change the inland hex border color from black to gray. It makes it less forceful visually. So yes, there are two different colors being used for the hex grid.



Froonp -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/22/2006 2:08:21 AM)

quote:

Port of Turku (or Åbo as it is also called) is not a port in the map I have.

Right. It's on no WiF FE maps.
There is also a city north of Turku (Finland), called Tampere, who should not be on the map.
Also, what is this red line north of Hango (Finland).
Also, the hex east of the Finnish island called Alan should have a shore in it, and the hexwest of Turku should have a shore too.



Incy -> RE: Maps for MWIF (1/22/2006 2:09:27 AM)

Currently a blue-sided hex "overrides" a blacksided hex, so the shared hexide is always blue. Since hexides shared between non-coastal and coastal hexes are always all-land, I think it would look better if black overrides blue instead.

btw, the blue/black hexide trick is a very nice way to show if an hexide is coastal !!
How about a third color for all-sea hexides, so it can be seen at a glance what hexes are invadable?

Incy



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