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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

 
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/12/2006 5:58:46 AM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Bump


Why?

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Post #: 31
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/12/2006 6:00:46 AM   
jolly_pillager

 

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My take on current land combat is that massing is ALWAYS advantageous. By this I mean that the disadvantages of overmassing (no flank defense etc. etc.) are not represented. As an example in a current game the Japanese have managed to trash China soundly by simply massing 10-15 divisions in one hex and moving down the rail line killing everything the Chinese try to put in the way.

The book method of dealing with this would be to give way in front of them and then pinch the salient off with your flanking units and starve them out...sadly this doesn't work because the attackers in this case are far, far too mobile on the railroads (coupled with the fact that 2 Japanese Divisions can slaughter 4 Corps of Chinese...(especially after the Chinese are fatigued from marching 120 miles through rice paddies...).

As another observation the 2-1 assault value rule causing all allied units in a base to simply die is extremely devestating. It only works into the habds of heavy overstacking...run the tanks around to establish "Zones of Control" behind a HUGE garrisson, shock attack woth your 15 Divisions, get 2-1 (barely) and suddenly you have destroyed hundreds of thousands. This is a bad design

I would suggest having the final odds determined by casualties caused (with weighting towards differnt armies to account for fanatical defense/wanton disregard for casualties) with a scalable modifier for outnumbering the enemy.

If Japanese never surrender, that's fine by me...however a Banzai charge should DESTROY all the men participating in it...assuming that the charge doesn't break the defenders. I would say that it could be treated as a Shock Attack withg the following caveat...if thenoon-Japanese troops hold after recieving it, then all the Japanese involved are killed.

Final word...units should be able to reform without this silly fragment pulling voodoo. If you have the men in the pool, a destroyed unit should be reformed 90 days after the fact (or 120 days or whatever) and draw new recruits from the pool. There MIGHT be room for an exception for command restricted units...but that might be solved by having them return in Sorebaja/Manilla...this would keep them away until the territory has been liberated. Also they should not return until there is enough in the pools to fill the unit to at least 1/3 or 1/4 strength...until then list them as "organizing" or some such. It's not like the major beligerants DIDN'T form new units in the war...so why should we be stuck wioth only the ones historically formed when our situation might not be the same as was historical.

For this to work there would need to be a realistic number of graduates from Basic training as well as some sort of manpower limit in place for each nation (you could, after all, kill them all in theory...)

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 32
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/12/2006 11:20:32 AM   
zuikaku


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Regarding the land combat... since Matrix now owns rights on the TOAW series, wouldn't be the best solution that land combat could be based on TOAW engine and air and naval combat on current WITP engine? I think leaders shouldn't be the problem as their characteristics could add or substract overall assault value and help or severe logistic problems of the particular unit.

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Post #: 33
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/12/2006 2:21:56 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

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Even being a treadhead (ie Panzer fan) I'd like to see ground combat as simple as can be in a game concentrating mostly on A2A and naval issues. For me raw number of troops and some info on quality, supply and morale would be enough. Overstacking could be easily solved by giving a limit to each base (e.g Midway 3000 people should they be marines soldiers seebees whatever).



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Post #: 34
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/12/2006 2:53:22 PM   
zuikaku


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As I can see, there is no best solution for land combat model! Present model is not perfect, but it's usable! They should concentrate to give us the best naval model possible! And German raiders

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Post #: 35
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/13/2006 12:36:56 PM   
saj42


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following on Joe's ideas in posts 8 and 9 above, I copied this over from the WITP II Map discussion thread.....
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyho!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Like this you mean?

The geometry gets odd at the vertices. For eg. could a unit in the yellow sector move only to 3 and 5...or also to 1,2 and 6?

Treespider's idea is being applied to Combined Arms (which has been in development for some time ) Hexside sectors work well for hexside features (like bridges and minefields and fortifications etc etc) but I am not sure players will accept the idea of fighting for triangles.





This is a neat idea to resolve the 'shock attack when crossing a river' rule.
Lets say the hexside between 3 and 4 is a river. If you are attacking from 3 into 4 - you shock attack. When you capture area 4 you have your bridgehead. Now follow on units do NOT shock attack. Simple eh

OOPS this should really be in the Land Combat thread - must put a copy in there...


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Post #: 36
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/13/2006 3:03:29 PM   
Sneer


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do sth with "brave" cut off troops on non-base hex - it halts games

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Post #: 37
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/13/2006 3:49:14 PM   
Sardaukar


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I'd like to see Ground combat changing from IGo-UGo to WeGo. That is, no Japanese first attack..and after that Allied attack but all ground combat solved in one phase. Would make lot more sense, IMHO. After all, other side should not wait with thumb in their mouth for their turn to attack...

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Post #: 38
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/13/2006 9:54:39 PM   
JWE

 

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Hi all,

Ground combat model? Hmmmm. I would look at four things; 1) LCU (unit) composition, 2) unit posture, 3) unit orientation, and 4) result calculation algorithm; they generally interrelate. Here are some brief takes on these.

1) I like, very much, the idea of assembling a unit from various component parts; you could have, or have not, high-angle artillery, AT groups, AA groups, or other support weapons; or have, or have not, force multiplier units, such as signals, transport or the like. Should be identified as “front line” (FEBA units with integral weap systems, i.e., inf squads & 81mm morts), “oriented support” (AT weaps, etc ..), “support” (arty), and “multipliers” (these reduce the time necessary to change posture and orientation)

2) Posture can be menu selectable and would be different whether the unit has been in position for a while, or is moving. Posture is like; for example, advance (to contact or not), recon (in force or not), fixing attack, deliberate attack, all out assault; delaying defense, deliberate defense, and death-or-glory (not meant to be complete).

3) Orientation (also menu selectable) depends on the (Joe, Mandrake, Tallyho!) take on hexes (above); a unit will orient straight ahead (towards/across one hex side) when moving/attacking, but will spread over a wider area (pointing towards 2 or 3 adjacent hex sides) when defending, thus giving an attacker a “local” superiority. Defending FEBA units can be divided by the algorithm so as to have a “front” on two or three hex sides, depending on the “orientation” selected. Support units (artillery, for best example) may encompass the orientation edges; artillery (depending on national characteristics, naturally) can fully concentrate behind the one unit portion “orientated” to defend against the attack vector (kinda like all of the div arty shooting in support of the one regt making the assault, or the one regt facing the enemy assault). Oriented support is just like FEBA; it is “oriented” by the player and therefore dispersed by the algorithm. Multipliers reduce the time necessary to change orientation (i.e., move the friggin reserve Bn to where it’s needed).

4) This one is tough. Whether UGO/IGO or WEGO, the algorithm should apply to the # of bodies attacking, exposure of attackers & defenders, and unit firepower. # of bodies and firepower depends on “orientation” factors. Exposure depends on a unit’s “posture”; defense from emplacements exposes little; all-out assault has maximum exposure. Both sides’ relative amounts of firepower develops an ‘interim combat result’, such as ‘pinning’, ‘disrupting’, etc .. with consequent casualties. Depending on ‘posture’, an attack may well continue even though the attacker is ‘disrupted’. Deliberate attacks may continue until the requisite # of dead is reached; then the action is broken off; counterattack or retreat for reorganization is the next option. Banzai assaults may continue until all are dead. Following the ‘interim result’ a unit (depending on ‘posture’) can proceed with ‘close engagement’. This typically results in either the attacker, or the defending unit (again dependant on ‘orientation’), being “defeated” (perhaps even annihilated). The remainder (the non-engaged, or non-oriented units) likely beat feet.

There are existing models of % casualties related to combat effectiveness. Naturally, an “interim combat” could crush an “exposed” attacking force by fire alone.

Well, that’s the very short of it.

JWE


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Post #: 39
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/14/2006 5:56:14 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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How about this for HQ assignments:

Instead of having each arriving unit pre-assigned to an HQ, how about-- keeping the HQ assingment system, however--each arriving unit starts out unassigned at which point the player is given an initial one time chance to assign the unit to any HQ he desires free of PP charge. After the initial "free" assignment, then it would cost PPs to change the assignment.

This could be exempt for HQ units so players don't exploit the system and assign every arriving unit to the same HQ, including HQ units to make it so that there is no need to use PPs. So for instance, the HQ structure for the Kwantung army or ABDA might remain identical to the historical one, and could not be changed even with PPs. The same army HQs, corps HQs and command HQs would remain under their respective historical commands, however if a player wants to utilize the benefits of those HQs, then he would have to assign units under them or else have an HQ sitting around wasting away, contributing nothing to the war effort.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 4/14/2006 6:40:36 AM >

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Post #: 40
RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion - 4/14/2006 2:21:24 PM   
el cid again

 

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Since WITP is primarily a naval air game, I favor retaining same hex combat - which is better modeled by same hex combat. Having had to work out a same hex combat system for a different naval-air game, I can report (with some surprise) that, if you get it working, same hex land combat systems not only can function well, they have some advantages over traditional "attack the units in the adjacent hex" systems. The main difficulty is "how do you create the effect of a line" in a same hex combat system? That is, why can't a unit just march through your line? Turns out this question is not hard to answer - and the germ of the answer is in the present rules about moving from an enemy ZOC to another. Given the scale of the theater, the scale of WITP II is likely to remain pretty large - I personally hope for the UV scale of 30 NM per hex - which is also 1 million to 1 - or 1 mm = 1 km - and a very good scale for operational combat. But the resultant hexes are so large same hex combat makes more sense than adjacent hex combat does - technically speaking.

Due to the sheer size of hexes, I do not like stacking limits per se. I prefer other effects to be functions of unit density. There are reasonable limits to how many units can participate in combat, for example, but these should not limit how many units can be present. A hex of 625 square nautical miles is pretty big and can hold millions of people. On the other hand, a tiny atol, or fraction of an atol suitable for a base, probably cannot hold more than a division (see Tarawa's Bateo Island for example). You might want to have several sizes of atols - Kwajalein (the world's largest) and Truk could hold a corps easily - but some volcanic islands (I am thinking of Tulagi here) might have a problem with a regiment. So stacking limits for REALLY SMALL land bodies might make sense, as opposed to stacking limits in Australia or China or Japan.

If you do NOT have same hex combat, how can you attack an atol or small island (within one hex) at all? It makes more sense to have your troops ON the island - and fighting for control of it - than to have them somehow "in the water" - which they might not be in fact.

Anyway, if you wish to keep the advantages of same hex combat systems in terms of range measurement, modeling air and naval battles, and modeling fights over small places, there are ways to do this that will work for vast areas as well. They are not something players are familiar with - and my experience is that new ideas are unwelcome - but I believe this may be a case where that is not sufficient grounds to reject the concept. IF it can be made functional and easy to learn, and if it facilitates a better integrated system, then it may be the way to go.

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 41
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