Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Norm3

Like the Japanese Navy really needs any further help with their damage control

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

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ORIGINAL: Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
....ships falling off blocks in drydock (for two points, name that ship)...[snip]

USS Stewart fell off her blocks in the drydock at Surubaya (as opposed to Cassin which was blown off by a bomb)

Two points! That's the one I had in mind.

I should have cited HMS Valiant in a floating drydock at Ceylon. The drydock (AFD-23, one of the big ones) collapsed under her. Valiant had to go home for repairs and AFD-23 was a total loss.

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Don Bowen)

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ORIGINAL: spence

Are there "events" at sea too? The IJN nearly lost Ise and Hyuga on the same GUNEX in the spring of 1942 - one (can't remember which had what) had a gun blow up and the the fires nearly reached the magazines...on the other, some serious flooding including a fireroom and engineroom (something tells me these two had been on somebody's list to be replaced for a fair while but somehow they could never found the money to make it happen).

And then there's Mutsu that just up and blew up one day.

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ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Complete loss of a ship is possible but would be very (very, very) rare."


Forgive me, but is this to be considered very, very rare as in a magazine explosion?

Hopefully, it will be even more rare...

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

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ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Complete loss of a ship is possible but would be very (very, very) rare."


Forgive me, but is this to be considered very, very rare as in a magazine explosion?

Hopefully, it will be even more rare...

Other end of the universe. A Mutsu type event is not really modeled - we made no attempt to incorporate one-up or very rare events into routine processing.

What you do get is an occasional chance of an event during repairs that increases damage. If you get an event, there is an occasional chance that it might be severe. And, if a ship is already badly damaged, the additional damage may cause her to sink.

But, just to whet your appetite, there are events for ships at sea. The point-or-two-of-systems-damage has a dark side. Collision, grounding, engine failure, running out of grog…

And cargo handling events, too. Damage from booms or cranes collapsing (including loss of cargo), fuel or oil lines breaking, fires, such things. Rare, rare, rare, but play enough and you will see it.

In fact, you would probably have to play for years before you see all the new messages…

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ORIGINAL: JWE

Cid,

Do you happen to recall the size of the shore party in your era? I know during Korea and beyond, it was 2 crews, each about 10-12 ratings and a PO, with a CPO-1 as shore Boss.

I think it was very similar during War-2 but not really sure.

Maybe you could shoot me a pm, since this may be getting OT.

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ORIGINAL: mlees

"Malus" = negative modifier.

I figured that if a ship was in Dry Dock, it would be at a reduced manning level, it's ammo off loaded, and so on. Reducing it's effectivness or number of AA guns available in the event of an air attack.

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ORIGINAL: Marc

I always wondered why the 5.5" gun from the Japanese CLs/BBs had so little penetration value in WitP. This gun can't even scratch the lightest armor in the game.

If I'm not wrong no one ever touched gun penetration values from day 1 of WitP (at least with CHS).
In search for some data I stumbled over this Internetsite with values for many Naval Guns of WWII. WWII NAVAL GUN PENETRATION TABLES

Perhaps this data can be used for the Admirals Edition if the team thinks the values are correct.

Anyway thank you for your effort.

Marc

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ORIGINAL: Norm3

Any chance you want to elaborate on that? A horrific image of exploding fleet carriers, that have just made port with some damage after a major clash with the other side, has ruined my meal and beer.

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ORIGINAL: Dixie

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ORIGINAL:  Don Bowen
....ships falling off blocks in drydock (for two points, name that ship)...[snip]

USS Stewart fell off her blocks in the drydock at Surubaya (as opposed to Cassin which was blown off by a bomb)

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ORIGINAL: VSWG

How many AK / AP classes does AE have? CHS introduced many new transport classes, is AE more/less complex? IIRC someone already mentioned that Aquitania is in, are there any other 1 ships AK/AP classes?

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

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ORIGINAL: Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
....ships falling off blocks in drydock (for two points, name that ship)...[snip]

USS Stewart fell off her blocks in the drydock at Surubaya (as opposed to Cassin which was blown off by a bomb)

A cargo ship - I forget her name - blew up while being loaded at Port Chicago - a major naval ammunition depot in California. It was the source of endless controversy - even a theory an atomic bomb was involved - and dozens of black seamen were courts martialed (apparently quite wrongly) and eventually exhonorated. In WWI a similar incident devastated Halifax, Nova Scotia.

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Unless decommissioned, a ship would not normally offload ammunition. But it would do things like tear a boiler or turbine or diesel engine apart, allow major maintenance (or upgrade) of a radar set (or any other thing), stuff like that. The crew normally is partially ashore - on liberty - unless (like USS Yorktown) combat is expected. If a ship is on "24 hour sailing notice" it is trying to fix all these things ASAP - and if things are really bad it will sail regardless of who is around - what is down (like a few ships did at Pearl Harbor). But in that case - it might be that some capabilities are degraded: the ship is slower - it has less AA guns - or no radar of this or that sort - or maybe just that it cannot sustain combat as long - fewer men getting tired sooner and there is no relief - or maybe their skill level declines because of no relief.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

A cargo ship - I forget her name - blew up while being loaded at Port Chicago - a major naval ammunition depot in California. It was the source of endless controversy - even a theory an atomic bomb was involved - and dozens of black seamen were courts martialed (apparently quite wrongly) and eventually exhonorated. In WWI a similar incident devastated Halifax, Nova Scotia.

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On May 21, 1944, the tank landing ship LST-353 exploded at West Loch while handling ammunition. In a short space of time six LSTs were so damaged that they sank. Two others were severely damaged. 163 sailors were killed; 396 wounded. This was the second worst incident in the United States during World War II.

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ORIGINAL: SargeantTex

Will Kaiten torpedos be included or will that fall under midget subs

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In the field of ship's maintenance I feel that the US should probably enjoy an advantage just from the higher level of mechanical awareness virtually every American had from the very culture he/she grew up in. I'm not trying to denigrate the Naval Rating Specialists of other navies but even the lowliest Fireman Apprentice/Recruit could generally be counted on to have had his head under the hood of a car and have a basic understanding of what allowed the systems to work. In Imperial Japan, relatively few citizens owned or drove a car or truck. For them things mechical were entirely foreign to their experience and they required training just to reach a basic level. Thus while a Japanese crew might perform the same sort of maintenance operations that a US crew performed the engineering personnel actually performing useful work towards the goal would be restricted to those specialists who had received the necessary training. This American "mechanical advantage" has been commented upon in the context of the US Army's mechanization and in aviation support by many noted historians and should carry over no less to ship's maintenance.

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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In the field of ship's maintenance I feel that the US should probably enjoy an advantage just from the higher level of mechanical awareness virtually every American had from the very culture he/she grew up in. I'm not trying to denigrate the Naval Rating Specialists of other navies but even the lowliest Fireman Apprentice/Recruit could generally be counted on to have had his head under the hood of a car and have a basic understanding of what allowed the systems to work. In Imperial Japan, relatively few citizens owned or drove a car or truck. For them things mechical were entirely foreign to their experience and they required training just to reach a basic level. Thus while a Japanese crew might perform the same sort of maintenance operations that a US crew performed the engineering personnel actually performing useful work towards the goal would be restricted to those specialists who had received the necessary training. This American "mechanical advantage" has been commented upon in the context of the US Army's mechanization and in aviation support by many noted historians and should carry over no less to ship's maintenance.

This is a good point, Spence. But take it a step further... any man can be trained to perform routine maintenance and do it well. That's normally not the issue however. The issues come into play when something unusual occurs that isn't covered by the book, say a major malfunction or battle damage. That is where that "American mechanical advantage" really paid off. The ability to improvise, to jury-rig, to cobble together with chewing gum and bailing wire was a hallmark of the American serviceman.

That is not to say it was the exclusive ability of American mechanics but it certainly was a widespread ability with them.

Chez

Beta Team Member for:

WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

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ORIGINAL: Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
....ships falling off blocks in drydock (for two points, name that ship)...[snip]

USS Stewart fell off her blocks in the drydock at Surubaya (as opposed to Cassin which was blown off by a bomb)

A cargo ship - I forget her name - blew up while being loaded at Port Chicago - a major naval ammunition depot in California. It was the source of endless controversy - even a theory an atomic bomb was involved - and dozens of black seamen were courts martialed (apparently quite wrongly) and eventually exhonorated. In WWI a similar incident devastated Halifax, Nova Scotia.

NO?? Really??

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ORIGINAL: spence

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Unless decommissioned, a ship would not normally offload ammunition. But it would do things like tear a boiler or turbine or diesel engine apart, allow major maintenance (or upgrade) of a radar set (or any other thing), stuff like that. The crew normally is partially ashore - on liberty - unless (like USS Yorktown) combat is expected. If a ship is on "24 hour sailing notice" it is trying to fix all these things ASAP - and if things are really bad it will sail regardless of who is around - what is down (like a few ships did at Pearl Harbor). But in that case - it might be that some capabilities are degraded: the ship is slower - it has less AA guns - or no radar of this or that sort - or maybe just that it cannot sustain combat as long - fewer men getting tired sooner and there is no relief - or maybe their skill level declines because of no relief.

The number and type of jobs that can be performed by the ship's crew while in port is quite extensive: rebricking a boiler and replacing tubes therein, overhauling a main turbine (for a steam plant) are a couple of the jobs that would ordinarily happen while in port and be carried out by the ship's engineering department without outside assistance (except parts). The Coast Guard District (Naval District) would put the ship in some time specific "Standby" status (48 hour, 24 hour, 12 hour, 6 hour, 2 hour). Any of the later 3 would preclude jobs such as were mentioned above since part of the plant would have to be hot.

In the field of ship's maintenance I feel that the US should probably enjoy an advantage just from the higher level of mechanical awareness virtually every American had from the very culture he/she grew up in. I'm not trying to denigrate the Naval Rating Specialists of other navies but even the lowliest Fireman Apprentice/Recruit could generally be counted on to have had his head under the hood of a car and have a basic understanding of what allowed the systems to work. In Imperial Japan, relatively few citizens owned or drove a car or truck. For them things mechical were entirely foreign to their experience and they required training just to reach a basic level. Thus while a Japanese crew might perform the same sort of maintenance operations that a US crew performed the engineering personnel actually performing useful work towards the goal would be restricted to those specialists who had received the necessary training. This American "mechanical advantage" has been commented upon in the context of the US Army's mechanization and in aviation support by many noted historians and should carry over no less to ship's maintenance.

Speaking of Naval Districts, are these Naval HQs whose principle mission was maintenance support now going to be included for the US?

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ORIGINAL: el cid again
It might be interesting generally though: not very different, TO&E would be 14 men - and theoretically some LTJG or so would be in charge but almost never present (as he has six other jobs). There would not have to be a chief - but if not a PO1 would be in charge - and there would be at least three PO2 - one for each team - of which there could be 3. Naval organization is task oriented - so it might act as one, two or three teams - and in my day the leader was not in any of the teams - but there would be a radioman with him - also not in any of the teams - because the radios were quite heavy - Korean era tube type radios with extra batteries - each of which weighed more than an entire radio today. If more men were required, they would be attached, either grunts from the boat division (on an APA this is about 80 strong, the biggest division on the ship) - or specialists from whatever division (say a signalman, a hospital corpsman, a gunners mate if you had to be armed and worry about supporting weapons - which ordinary sailors didn't do - the gunner's mate took care of weapons - or any other specialist of interest to the particular day's work).

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ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

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ORIGINAL: VSWG
How many AK / AP classes does AE have? CHS introduced many new transport classes, is AE more/less complex? IIRC someone already mentioned that Aquitania is in, are there any other 1 ships AK/AP classes?

Bunches and bunches ... JWE can elaborate ...