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RE: How much - 1/1/2011 6:48:27 AM

Gandalf

Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2010
From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: U-235

I felt I had to chime in on this one. I don't mind paying for a great game (after plenty of player reviews of course). What I do mind is when the game is old and still over 50 bucks. Example: I love Steel Panthers. I own every commercial iteration and most of the post SSI creations as well. Unfortunately I missed two of Matrixgames's expansion packs. The only way to get them now is to buy the General's Edition. This game has not been touched (updated) by Matrixgames in years, regrettably. That kind of blows the "continuing research/development costs" defense out of the water. I'm sure over 90% of the costs to make it have already been expended and recouped, I could be wrong.

As for WItE, it's up there (I'm still on the fence). My line thinking on it is wouldn't it be better to sell 2 people a copy for 50 bucks than one copy for 80? If the game is good, that's two supporting voices advocating (for people like myself that listen to many players opinions), and probably two people that will buy the expansions (if and) when they come out. The only flaw I can think of is that Matrix believes only a certain number of copies will sell regardless of the price. I would disagree. 80 bucks pays my home phone and cell phone bills for a month with a little left over. I'm sure a lot of folks evaluate their needs and wants before making a decision too.

Before I get shotgun blasted by some. I own WItP and WItP AE. I can tell you due to no fault of the games (work), I haven't got my monies worth from them yet (but I hope too, even if that will be when I retire). So I say to Matrix make me want to dig deep into my wallet to buy a game I probably won't get to enjoy fully for a while. 90 bucks (hard copy) looks almost exactly like $100 when it passes thru my brains "purchasing logic" filter. Oh yeah, and SPWaW Generals Edition needs a half price sale!

Nah, they should keep it $80... It's worth every dollar. Matter of fact, I'd have paid $100 for it. Beats the heck out of pushing cardboard counters around and you don't even have to worry about the cat running across the map.

Did you know the original War in the East boardgame sells for $225 for the complete set... see: http://www.origami-kids.com/shopping/en/350419780382/war-in-the-east-1941-45-spi-large-box-2nd-edition-maps.html

The original War in the West Boardgame sells for $300. see: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17102/war-in-the-west

Also War In Europe (the complete integrated War In the West/War In the East package) runs for $500.00 when it's not sold out... see: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150377.html

I can't believe I tossed my copy of War In Europe in the 80s after the advent of Computers and no room for setting it up... Sheesh $500 bucks would have bought me 6 copies of this computer version...

So much for older games selling cheaper.

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 1/1/2011 7:57:09 AM >

(in reply to U235)

Post #: 271

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 7:18:17 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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quote:

ORIGINAL: billyjj

People on this forum still haven't learned their lesson. Looks like an other money grab.. this is getting really old, but the same fanboys say the same thing about game after game. "But this game is soooo good, and it took soooo much effort and research".. Its a damn eastern front hex game you don't need research all you do is open up a history book on tanks and copy the stats into your game, what a joke.

Man, not only are you insulting to customers who gave a lot of thought to spending $90 on the game, you are not very well informed about creating a game of this depth, playability and quality. So tell me how soon you can do your research, think of a basic idea of what your game will be about and who your target audience is, decide if you are going to innovate or clone, write a design document(play the game in your head, model every aspect of the game with a spreadsheet, create user interfaces and all the games features[and revise, revise, revise].) Oh, don't forget game mechanics. Oh, decide how to implement these ideas into a game. Also, are you going to write the code all alone? What about graphics? Will you create something new or manipulate the old? Or will you need someone to work on the artwork of the game. Darn, I forgot something that you should think of somewhere at the start: What's your hook and how long will it take to catch and hold that player? Play "rock, paper scissors" while developing-you know, what will be a(or some) key strong unit's and key weak unit's. Balance is the goal here. Back to programming. Will you write the code? If so which language? How many lines of code do you think it will take? WHOA, don't forget that artificial intelligence. But I'm sure that and everything else is as easy as you say, why it's in the history books. Will you use testers? Or just write all that code, create beautiful tiles, an attractive and intuitive interface, a smart AI......and then just through it out to fan boys?

God, how pathetic that little attempt was at explaining how to make a game. It's is maybe a little more involved than what I just prattled on about. Did you know Age of Empire's was a 1000 day project? Read that somewhere a long time ago.

Joel, when billyjj has created the game, thus proving Matrix is bloated and inefficient, PLEASE allow him to post a link to it. I can't wait to see the result.

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(in reply to billyjj)

Post #: 272

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 7:22:35 AM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: U-235

My line thinking on it is wouldn't it be better to sell 2 people a copy for 50 bucks than one copy for 80?

This doesn't work if the FIXED costs per copy is over your $50.00 example. There are many costs that most people are unaware of.

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Flipper

(in reply to U235)

Post #: 273

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 7:38:16 AM

parusski

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My GOD man home and cell phone. Got rid of the old home phone in 2004. That has been one of many reasons I can buy affordable entertainment like WitE. "Needs and wants" you say. Do you really need a home phone. I know you might depending on location, but most people don't. This game price issue is like the gas price issue. Inflation never really touched gasoline. But when it hit $3-$4 a gallon few Americans really made any changes at all in driving habits, because today's prices are what they should have been based on inflation. And oh man the stories of vacations canceled. MATH: if a family planned a 500 mile round trip vacation when gas was $1.75 and their car got about 26 MPG(Avg in 2008) they would have spent about 34 bucks on fuel. So when gas hit $3.00 they then needed to spend about $58.00. LOL, most people who could afford the trip to start with most likely could scrape up another 24 green bills. HYPE. What the hell am I talking about?

Most pc games cost from $39-$59.00, and they are aimed at the mass market. If you are really a lover of niche games, especially war games then you should expect the game to cost a lot more because it takes more work to hook niche players. And would everyone stop the "it's better to sell two WitE at $40 or $50 than one at $90..."! Read Thomas Sowell or Friedrick Hayek and learn a little about economics. My head will explode over this insane issue.

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Post #: 274

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 7:46:25 AM

Gandalf

Posts: 364
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From: Jefferson City, MO
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parrusski:

I'm laughing so hard... I'm freaking crying. (of course it all started when I saw the current price for the original War In Europe I posted above.)

Quote from wife (back then)...

quote:

When are you going to get rid of those worthless things? They take up too much space.

Gotta show her that link... hehe

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 1/1/2011 7:49:17 AM >

(in reply to parusski)

Post #: 275

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 10:43:40 AM

bairdlander2

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I love it the Canadian dollar closed worth more than usa currency,Im proud to be canadian

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Post #: 276

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 10:50:52 AM

bairdlander2

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These price threads always start with any new release over $40,I doubt these games sell millions of copies like console fps games,if the devs can make some $$ Im glad to give it to them,cuz I dont see any mainstream companies selling games like this.If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

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Post #: 277

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 4:03:15 PM

diablo1

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quote:

If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

Thank you...I won't.

But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

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Post #: 278

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 4:11:31 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

Thank you...I won't. But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

I disliked the price on BFTB and said so. Probably more than once. But, if I recall correctly I was more annoyed at the increase in price of previous titles. That to me was wrong. I had fully planned on getting one of the earlier titles to determine if I would like BFTB, but then the price went up on the older titles and I balked.

All I can say is I think this one is worth it.

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Post #: 279

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 4:22:26 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3
I disliked the price on BFTB and said so. Probably more than once. But, if I recall correctly I was more annoyed at the increase in price of previous titles. That to me was wrong. I had fully planned on getting one of the earlier titles to determine if I would like BFTB, but then the price went up on the older titles and I balked.

All I can say is I think this one is worth it.

Exactly.

This game and BFTB are worlds apart. In gaming value terms this game is worth the asking price, BFTB is nowhere near that. Simple as that.

Now, the fact that Matrixgames priced both products nearly the same does not reflect well on the company IMO, but that's another matter entirely. I don't want to send a message that WITE should be priced higher. My message is that BFTB's price is ridicolous, but that we, gamers, are ready to pay premium price for premium product without complaining. In my case WITE price is not a problem at all.

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Post #: 280

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 4:25:44 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
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From: Central Florida
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Here we go again. Talking about beating a Dead Horse!!!! If you notice the ones who complain, don't have the game. And they are Chronic in their complaining.

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Post #: 281

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 4:26:41 PM

Toby42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3
I disliked the price on BFTB and said so. Probably more than once. But, if I recall correctly I was more annoyed at the increase in price of previous titles. That to me was wrong. I had fully planned on getting one of the earlier titles to determine if I would like BFTB, but then the price went up on the older titles and I balked.

All I can say is I think this one is worth it.

Exactly.

This game and BFTB are worlds apart. In gaming value terms this game is worth the asking price, BFTB is nowhere near that. Simple as that.

Now, the fact that Matrixgames priced both products nearly the same does not reflect well on the company IMO, but that's another matter entirely. I don't want to send a message that WITE should be priced higher. My message is that BFTB's price is ridicolous, but that we, gamers, are ready to pay premium price for premium product without complaining. In my case WITE price is not a problem at all.

AMEN!!!! Well said..

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Post #: 282

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 5:16:05 PM

fsp

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Just curious - is there anyone who HAS spent the 90 $ and is NOT satisfied with his purchase? In the end, that's what it is all about I think.

A turn will take me at least an hour. The GC is ~ 200 turns. If I play the game only once each as Germans and Soviets, that's 400 hours of entertainment, which comes down to ~23 cents/hours. I can hardly think of any other entertainment that costs less.

It's rational to me. Someone else (maybe in this thread or another) mentioned COD Black Ops. Unfortunately, I like lots of genres though wargaming is by far the best. I would have liked Black Ops. But not for THAT price. In my book, that would NOT pay off.

Everyone has to make their own choices, and I don't get how anyone can belittle others for the choice they make. It is an individual one. Period.

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 283

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 5:28:53 PM

XAAL.

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From: Earth.
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Those who complain about the price spend their time not to play this game because they don't want to buy it.
People who bought the game, no one regretted the investment, and everyone has fun with the game and everyone said it was money well spent.

If you step back you might have a different point of view. Instead of spending hours on forums to complain about the price (you're used to this method), you could spend this time doing extra work and with the money you could easily buy the game.
This is just an example, I do not say that's what you should do.

Matrix is a rare wargames publisher that offer quality without using DRM, unlike some other companies, and who respects their customers. In addition, the game is complete and playable without having to buy other extensions (HO3, CMSF, SOTS, and many others)to have a complete game in working condition.

What is funny is that if WITE was released in several parts (eg 4 parts covering four years of war in the East) with each parts sold for 35 �, nobody would have complained about the price, when in fact the total price would be 140 � for the full game...
That's what companies like Paradox or Battlefront are doing.
Slitherine is following the same path with FOG. Note I don't criticize them since they need this business model to stay on the market and not going bankrupt.

So, if paying a higher price enables a company like Matrix to survive, to continue to produce full quality wargames like WITE, and do not include abusive DRM nonsense, so I do not mind paying 80 � for such games, and IMO this is a fair price for that game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

Thank you...I won't. But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

< Message edited by XAAL. -- 1/1/2011 5:34:06 PM >

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Post #: 284

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 5:57:29 PM

Gandalf

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From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp

Just curious - is there anyone who HAS spent the 90 $ and is NOT satisfied with his purchase? In the end, that's what it is all about I think.

I'm quite satisfied with the price charged considering the amount of work and detail that is involved with programming a game of this size.

I will admit I'm slightly disatisfied concerning the fact that some features such as the air war need much more balance (design) adjustment than should have been needed after the release (one ex. Axis poor CAP friendly loss results vs recon flights?). Since Grigsby and his games have a good rep for providing updates this isn't a big deal for me and I just spend the time waiting for the fix reading the manual thru maybe more than once and learning the mechanics of the game itself. Others that might expect a more "polished" designed game right out of v1.00 might not like that use of their money. In that case, they should wait until another patch or so is released. It seems to be a "norm" these days that no game is released without a few glitches to be reworked, so in that case the end buyer has to be aware of the particular software designer's rep for quick and thorough improvements.

Some software companes take your money... make you wait 6 months to a year for maybe a single patch... then the next patch is in the form of an expansion that you have to pay for. Those are the ones that I avoid buying from immediately after their titles are released. (examples ... Firaxis and Creative Assembly)

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 285

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 6:10:41 PM

Gandalf

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From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

Thank you...I won't. But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

Absolutely your right, as it is our right to post that the programmer/designers have designed something worthy of a higher price than normal, but what the heck does politics (re: leftists) have to do with it? I believe this is a gaming forum not a political forum...

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 1/1/2011 6:11:03 PM >

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Post #: 286

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 8:31:33 PM

simovitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

This game and BFTB are worlds apart. In gaming value terms this game is worth the asking price, BFTB is nowhere near that. Simple as that.

Oleg, before WitE was even released, BFTB has been on sale for $20 less. I think to be fair that, at least, should be noteworhty in these price-flame threads.

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RE: How much - 1/1/2011 9:04:54 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

Thank you...I won't. But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

Who said here you cant complain?What does this have to do with politics?When I hear someone complain about prices its usually an old woman at the store,are you implying you are an old woman?

(in reply to diablo1)

Post #: 288

RE: How much - 1/1/2011 10:31:05 PM

diablo1

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quote:

(re: leftists) have to do with it? I believe this is a gaming forum not a political forum...

Well there's sides in any debate so you guys are the leftists and I am part of the rightists see we's the rightists cause we's right. hahahaaa

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X3:Universe of games rules them all!! Xtra coming soon X3:REBIRTH 4th qtr 2011 YAY!

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Post #: 289

RE: How much - 1/2/2011 12:11:20 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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Gandalf, I too love to show my wife how much all the old games, especially the monster games, that I never opened are now worth. But her response today is "ok, then make both some profit and some space". Can't win with'em or..!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

parrusski:

I'm laughing so hard... I'm freaking crying. (of course it all started when I saw the current price for the original War In Europe I posted above.)

Quote from wife (back then)...

quote:

When are you going to get rid of those worthless things? They take up too much space.

Gotta show her that link... hehe

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Post #: 290

RE: How much - 1/2/2011 12:14:46 AM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

(re: leftists) have to do with it? I believe this is a gaming forum not a political forum...

Well there's sides in any debate so you guys are the leftists and I am part of the rightists see we's the rightists cause we's right. hahahaaa

Thank you Ravenhood

(in reply to diablo1)

Post #: 291

RE: How much - 1/2/2011 3:15:30 AM

U235

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From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
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quote:

My GOD man home and cell phone. Got rid of the old home phone in 2004. That has been one of many reasons I can buy affordable entertainment like WitE. "Needs and wants" you say. Do you really need a home phone.

Yeah, I keep the land line for the alarm system. Gotta protect those valuable stacks of CD's and DVD's.

(in reply to Gandalf)

Post #: 292

RE: How much - 1/2/2011 3:37:22 AM

Theng

Posts: 259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

If you dont like the price dont buy,simple.

Thank you...I won't. But, I will always stand up for MY RIGHT to complain about todays prices on anything and everything I deem important and necessary. That's what a democracy allows don't you know? So you leftists can just move along and stop telling us we can't complain.

Generally speaking the "left" is for price controls (along the lines of Keynes), and the "right" is for charging whatever the market bears also known as market equilibrium (along the lines of Friedman). I am doing both great economists a great injustice by reducing their treatise to this level, but due to the level of discourse here I seem to be required to do so. You seem to have mixed up the two concepts of what the left and the right generally stand for. I regret to inform you therefore that you are a "leftist" without actually knowing it.

Just for the record, I purchased War in Russia in 1983 for $79.95. There are not that many products that have kept their prices stable over a 30 year period and added features outside the computer and electronics hardware field.

As a general advocate of conservative economic policies, I would advise you spend only the money that you think is less than the utility to expect to derive from the product. Also just because you have the RIGHT to make a fool out of yourself, does not make it a wise decision to do so. Nevertheless, please feel free to exercise that right for the general entertainment of the readership of this forum.

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Post #: 293

RE: How much - 1/2/2011 4:22:08 AM

U235

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From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

This doesn't work if the FIXED costs per copy is over your $50.00 example. There are many costs that most people are unaware of.

I agree completely, but I doubt Matrix will share the number of disks they have to sell to pay costs and meet payroll up to release date (and why should they). After that costs go down, but it's on to something else. We can only assume they do fine, as they are still in business. They know their sweet spot. The company chooses how small or large they want to stay without taking a loss.

As to the OP in general, personally, I find it fascinating what some will happily pay for one consumer item yet be outraged to pay for another. I'm not dismissing anyone, one way or the other. Like I said, I have a nice collection of their titles, many that were re-engineered old games (effectively buying them twice). So I'm as guilty as many of the die hard fans. My wallet and I was there in the beginning (like many of you) when they were just starting out. I just don't see an issue with someone questioning the price, especially a substantial one (for some). Nobody is forcing anyone to comment. Cheers.

(in reply to wworld7)

Post #: 294

RE: How much - 1/3/2011 1:16:21 PM

morganbj

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Good grief. Ten pages. The single response should have been:

"If $80 is too much, don't buy it."

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Post #: 295

RE: How much - 1/4/2011 6:28:42 PM

Grouchy

Posts: 1117
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From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
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Couldn't help it after reading this thread to check my old War in Russia box. Inside it was also a 'summer 1993 update' leaflet with their new products and prices.

$79.95 ....
this was...
august...
1993
no further comment

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grouchy -- 1/4/2011 6:38:02 PM >

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Post #: 296

RE: How much - 1/4/2011 6:43:35 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Good grief. Ten pages. The single response should have been:

"If $80 is too much, don't buy it."

And yet, it goes on and on and on and on and ON...

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Post #: 297

RE: How much - 1/4/2011 7:27:40 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Good grief. Ten pages. The single response should have been:

"If $80 is too much, don't buy it."

And yet, it goes on and on and on and on and ON...

That's OK, goes to show that people are sensitive about pricing issues, which is understandable. Besides, this is the only thread where even the people who didn't buy the game can sensibly participate.

I do hope Matrix and their developer teams get a lesson out of this - you can't put a similar price tag on an East Front Bible and a Glorified Scenario Pack (please note, I didn't name any names here

)

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 298

RE: How much - 1/11/2011 2:14:57 AM

Zebedee

Posts: 535
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Price per hour played = peanuts.

Bargain.

Just ordered.

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Post #: 299

RE: How much - 1/11/2011 3:05:04 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

Man I gotta read this one: How do you make "sound" in posts? You actually hear "sounds"??? You've gota tell us how???

Very simply put I can hear that whining tone of yours about the price all the way to my very own little computer. With my very own copy of WITE on the hard drive,that I have been enjoying very much since December 7th. And yes,yes I paid full price for it so you may laugh at me to your hearts content. I have no complaints.