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RE: Oleg's German supermen

 
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RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/15/2011 9:43:25 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		I don't buy this "Germans supermen" thing (and I might be wrong) but for all I care, I am pretty certain all Oleg wants is to IMPROVE the game (is he right or wrong on this issue is irrelevant). I very much doubt he is here to start any "flame war"

After all, something will be done about the blizzard, or not? So he was not 100% wrong after all

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 3/15/2011 9:44:09 PM >

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 91
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/15/2011 9:46:14 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
quote:

What for you makes a key difference between "opinion" and "argument"?


Opinion: the Germans are overpowered.
Argument: the in-game Germans are overpowered compared to their historical counterparts because they face fewer supply problems and get more replacements.
Factual statement that can be used in an argument: historically the Germans got X amount of replacements, in the game they get Y.


If you put it that way, you will very very rarely get what you call an "argument", ie verifiable proven numerical fact about something in game that everybody would agree with. Only production and TOE can be argumented with clear numbers (probably not even that, because even documented numbers are not reliable sometimes)

Mostly you will get an opinion. This or that is too strong in my opinion, builds too fast, moves too slow etc. Germans in summer 41 are overpowered in my opinion. I cannot present anything that YOU would call argument according to your own definition, and I don't claim that I can.

Something somewhat close to what you call argument would be presenting TOE for German units pre blizzard, which in reality was as low as 30-50% and in game those same units on same lines of advance have TOEs well above 80%. Excellent morale and supply too, but how do you measure historical morale? So it will always be opinion A vs opinion B get over it mate


(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 92
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/15/2011 9:59:07 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		As far as fact vs opinion, I think it would be interesting to get more info on the % TOE and supply for the Germans just prior to the blizzard in the game, vs IRL. Sure, for any particular game it might not mean much, but if most of the German players suffered fewer losses or are in greater supply than IRL (for which we have at least anecdotal evidence), it might mean something is amiss.

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 93
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/15/2011 10:19:38 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		From Glantz and House, "When titans clashed"

Table C

Total numbers

German Army (East) 22-Jun-1941: 3.050.000
German Army (East) 1-Dec-1941: 2.700.000

Is that compatible with TOE above 80%? And with TOE 30-50%?

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 94
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/15/2011 10:30:19 PM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Well, in my game I think those number look roughly ok.

I think the low side will be pretty accurate after the blizzard.

Will have to see though.

We are approaching winter now.

Soviets aren't counter-attacking much. So I probably have a much bigger army than the testers see. They are the expert players if any of us are.

Well, that and I'm much to cautious.

I might be a better general as a soviet, ultimately.

< Message edited by Senno -- 3/15/2011 10:40:10 PM >

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 95
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 12:01:01 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

From Glantz and House, "When titans clashed"

Table C

Total numbers

German Army (East) 22-Jun-1941: 3.050.000
German Army (East) 1-Dec-1941: 2.700.000

Is that compatible with TOE above 80%? And with TOE 30-50%?

I know that you're not claiming they are, but the two claims cannot both be true. Not in terms of averages, at least. That, I believe, is where a lot of people - players, testers and developers, alike - are getting hung up. A problem is that though *some* units TOEs were in the 30-50% range, not all were. Which were, is dependent upon the type of actions they faced, among many other factors.

Anytime somebody wants to argue from the data, you have to ask and agree upon "What constitutes good data?". Also, how well does the game mirror this data? Further, given that WWII, and Barbarossa was a sample size of ONE, how does this translate into a game where "probable outcomes", "historical fact", and "playability" all have varying weights in terms of individual preference?

I don't pretend to know the answers. I leave that to the experts to debate. I only test, and make marginally informed opinions based on what I like in a game/historical simulation...

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 96
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 3:09:02 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		My understanding is that the German forces were about 300k short of what they needed to replace their losses as of 1 Dec 41. We've been discussing this actively in the tester forum. My guess is that when people talk about being 50% TOE, they are talking mostly about rifle squads and AFVs being far below TOE. Other elements were in fairly good shape, but infantry are always in short supply when the action gets heavy (espeically for attackers). Fundamentally I think the game is falling short in that the Germans are not taking enough casualties that are out of action (disabled in our game) and are thus going in to the winter better than they should (so are Soviets), and that is partially why we ended up needing such a vicious first winter to cut the Germans down. We're working on improving these things.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 97
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 4:25:50 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"I hope, you and the other guys here will fix it, so i can order it. Mentally preordered i have, but this is - for me the no-go-problem. Maybe we find some (at the other side) in later parts of the game, but in the moment the blizzardthing sounds to serious for me.

Oh, i bet i will be a bad axis/russian player for a long time, but that doesn´t matter. Knowing it doesen´t matter ist the problem - so why should i try if it is use- and senseless, cause blizzard ruins it anyway"

Stop beleiving everything you read on the internet; man up and buy the game.

(in reply to Adnan Meshuggi)
Post #: 98
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 4:51:53 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness."

I am not certain how to take this comment. I do not come here to confronted by anti-American diatribes; they contribute little to my inderstanding or enjoyment of the game.

This comment did not contribute to my understanding of the game and was somewhat unsettling.


Deze commentaar droeg niet tot mijn begrip van het spel bij en was enigszins van streek makend.

Diese Anmerkung trug nicht zu meinem Verständnis des Spiels bei und war ein wenig beunruhigend.

Этот комментарий не сделал внести вклад в мое вникание игры и был несколько тревожащ.

Ce commentaire n'a pas avancer ma connaissance du jeu et m'a desaxe un peu.


Good evening, gentlemen.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 99
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 5:02:43 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness."

I am not certain how to take this comment. I do not come here to confronted by anti-American diatribes; they contribute little to my inderstanding or enjoyment of the game.

This comment did not contribute to my understanding of the game and was somewhat unsettling.


Deze commentaar droeg niet tot mijn begrip van het spel bij en was enigszins van streek makend.

Diese Anmerkung trug nicht zu meinem Verständnis des Spiels bei und war ein wenig beunruhigend.

Этот комментарий не сделал внести вклад в мое вникание игры и был несколько тревожащ.

Ce commentaire n'a pas avancer ma connaissance du jeu et m'a desaxe un peu.


Good evening, gentlemen.


Dagnabit! Spik Merakin, ya damn Commie!

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 100
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 9:07:12 AM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"I hope, you and the other guys here will fix it, so i can order it. Mentally preordered i have, but this is - for me the no-go-problem. Maybe we find some (at the other side) in later parts of the game, but in the moment the blizzardthing sounds to serious for me.

Oh, i bet i will be a bad axis/russian player for a long time, but that doesn´t matter. Knowing it doesen´t matter ist the problem - so why should i try if it is use- and senseless, cause blizzard ruins it anyway"

Stop beleiving everything you read on the internet; man up and buy the game.

Well, i read the aar´s and the comments here.
Because i played UV, WitP, WitP AE i know some guys here and if they see problems, i know the problems are real.
As i said, i waited how long? 10 years? so no problem with waiting another 1 or 2 :)

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 101
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 9:19:06 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Fundamentally I think the game is falling short in that the Germans are not taking enough casualties that are out of action (disabled in our game) and are thus going in to the winter better than they should (so are Soviets), and that is partially why we ended up needing such a vicious first winter to cut the Germans down. We're working on improving these things.


I am really glad that you guys are looking at these issues, and not just sticking your head in the sand. Given all of the moving parts and interrelationships, I appreciate how difficult it must be to strike the right balance--keep up the good work!

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 102
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 1:55:24 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Hey! If anybody is going to call somebody a commie, it has to be me. That's a rule, dang it!

Commie.



_____________________________

Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 103
RE: Oleg's German supermen - 3/16/2011 2:23:26 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"Dagnabit! Spik Merakin, ya damn Commie!"

Reckon dats a good dang fangled ideer; cuz ya neer know...

Marquo  

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 104
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