Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

(In a lot of ways this is wrong way thinking. You want to catch and nail bombers and also provide no free lunches to the Allies).

quote:


Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 52
J2M3 Jack x 23
Ki-84r Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 173
F4U-1D Corsair x 296
F6F-3 Hellcat x 99
F6F-5 Hellcat x 162

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 28 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 5 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------

Raid detected at 116 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 44
N1K5-J George x 9

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 173
F4U-1D Corsair x 292
F6F-3 Hellcat x 99
F6F-5 Hellcat x 157

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 24 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Independence

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

quote:


Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 10
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 27
Ki-48-IIc Lily x 48
Ki-84a Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 157
F4U-1D Corsair x 287
F6F-3 Hellcat x 97
F6F-5 Hellcat x 153

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 30 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-48-IIc Lily releasing from 10000'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have quite a few theories, but to be honest somewhat hesitant at pointing them out currently.

I have long advocated the sweep ahead strategy, and I think I have a good grasp on the triggers to do this, but sweeping ahead of a big coordinated strike is something you want to avoid.

quote:


A method, favored by Mr. Kane, is that a high naval skill commander better targets the air squadrons attacks. I am dubious if this does indeed take place but given it's advocate do apply it in selecting air leaders.

I will point out that you need to ditch the Rex from escorting.

There is at least two types of escorts, and what you need to do here is figure out how to guarantee a close escort. Your strike package arrived with the majority of fighter protection on far escort. Additionally, an approach from the other side of the island would have let you get within 4 hexes for a normal strike range of the A6M8.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The problem we have here, having caught up, is that Obvert is letting bombers get thru in the daytime with no fighter, or fighter/bomber protection. It isn't that hard to get coverage up, but it does show Obvert focus is in striking and not defending. Float fighters and fighter bombers should be greeting those deep raids at the very least.

quote:


You have several rings of defense needed, and you need to really start from the outer ring and work your way forward.

Think of not giving the Allies any free lunches: every raid outside of fighter protection should run into floats or fighter bombers or obsolete fighters, even if you need to fractionalize those units to cover the area.

quote:


To defend against low level strike you need radar, high percentage 0 range cap set at 2-4K altitude.

quote:



Letting the bombers hit Harbin for free, ouch. There are several restricted Tony squadrons that should be all over Manchuko and Korea. Harbin is what, in the top 5 bases in Manchuko/Korea? Especially if it is a big Frank/NF/Sam factory (which it should be).

quote:


Try to get into a feel for how the Allies strike...very hard to do with low level strategic bombing. But get 3 Jack/Tony squadrons and use them to bounce from likely base to likely base in an attempt to catch those bombers. 70% CAP, 0 Range, Altitude 4K or less. This is probably one of the best uses of the ki100 with its cl cannons, high dur, and SR1.

All of this is boring, takes time and clicks, and is certainly less satisfying than hitting the Allies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm still not convinced that there's something fishy going on so much as minorly "weird" things (but things we know about) are happening at the margins - such as perhaps a discrepancy between the number of planes reported in a combat animation vs. how many are actually there (which is perhaps an artifact of the loiter time).

Your LRCAP is operating from a very extreme range (7 hexes? 8? with IJN aircraft...they aren't exactly P-38s with DTs). Until that's absolutely eliminated, that's my Occam's Razor. I really don't think there's anything going on that's more complicated than that. Maybe the fact that they're "there" (but can't loiter) is drawing off large numbers of his CAP/preventing more of his CAP from hitting your strike craft. But those are all plausible reasons to me and don't suggest that anything is actually broken.

quote:



And again - I've had battles with enormous numbers of aircraft as well. Here are two excerpts where some LRCAP was in play (I think, but mostly escorts):

quote:



Maximum time to intercept for my units was between 25 and 45 minutes in the first fight, between 20 and 38 minutes in the second - but all groups had a number of "planes intercepting now". Even then, note that planes still got through to attack. I really don't think anything funny is going on in your game and I'm not convinced your LRCAP is even doing anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm still not convinced that there's something fishy going on so much as minorly "weird" things (but things we know about) are happening at the margins - such as perhaps a discrepancy between the number of planes reported in a combat animation vs. how many are actually there (which is perhaps an artifact of the loiter time).

Your LRCAP is operating from a very extreme range (7 hexes? 8? with IJN aircraft...they aren't exactly P-38s with DTs). Until that's absolutely eliminated, that's my Occam's Razor. I really don't think there's anything going on that's more complicated than that. Maybe the fact that they're "there" (but can't loiter) is drawing off large numbers of his CAP/preventing more of his CAP from hitting your strike craft. But those are all plausible reasons to me and don't suggest that anything is actually broken.

This last one only the Jacks were at max normal range with DTs, at 9 hexes, but they also were at 38k, so I thought that would still be a benefit.

The rest were A6M3a and Oscars, which were at 8-10 hexes, but not still max normal range. They did interact with the sweepers earlier, but not as much during the big strike. Watching also it was odd, just the A6M8 hitting some CAP, then the CAP breaking through to wreck most of the strike, then the strike. Very few passes, very quick.

quote:



And again - I've had battles with enormous numbers of aircraft as well. Here are two excerpts where some LRCAP was in play (I think, but mostly escorts):

These aren't big numbers!

It's a decent CAP though.

quote:



Maximum time to intercept for my units was between 25 and 45 minutes in the first fight, between 20 and 38 minutes in the second - but all groups had a number of "planes intercepting now". Even then, note that planes still got through to attack. I really don't think anything funny is going on in your game and I'm not convinced your LRCAP is even doing anything.

The funny thing has to do with cooperating sweeps. If sweeps (escorts deciding to sweep or sweep I set) cooperate in multiple groups as one massive sweep, the combat is non-existent. That's the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

8 or 9 hexes for LRCAP, regardless of the plane's normal range, is very, very far.

quote:



The strikes not being big numbers is precisely my point - there's a large CAP there and bombers still get through, in similar-ish numbers to what's getting through for you.

Combined sweeps are weird and I do think that's a strange flaw in the engine, but I think it's completely separate from what's going on here - which is to say, I don't think anything is going on here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good?

I understand you don't want the sweeping ahead in a large strike package, but I think your strike package as I read it, actually encouraged sweeping ahead to occur. Anyhow, to your point, I think you want slightly different skills for escort commanders as opposed to CAP commanders, but who really has the PP to spare to achieve that?

quote:



7K is too high to stop 2K bombing attacks.

You mention you are in attack mode, my point.

Rex are great but in an offensive strike package they are like anchors for the strike group, imho.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't put forward theories.  I search for what the devs say and present that.

There is no true loiter in the game.  Nor is fuel consumption truly represented as it is not tracked.  The air combat model abstracts both into the number of passes.

Assume two different aircraft models.  Model "A" has a normal range of 4 hexes and model "B" has a normal range of 6 hexes.  If both fly out to 4 hexes, "A" will have fewer passes than "B" because "A" is at 100% of its fuel "allowance" whereas "B" is only at 66% and therefore has more fuel in "reserve" to allow it to stay longer in combat.  If only model "A" was involved and the distance was only 2 hexes, there would be more passes than if the combat occurred 3 hexes away.  At 4 hexes there would be even fewer passes than at 3 hexes.

quote:


However distance is not the only relevant factor.  Altitude and climb rate is also important.  Your sweeps are coming in at almost 35k.  Your opponent is presumably employing a layered CAP and it is very unlikely that he has much, if any, CAP set that high.  By the time his CAP has climbed to meet your A6M8 sweepers they may well have exhausted most if not all their available time on station (aka loiter) which is abstracted by number of available passes.

quote:



Escorting fighters which are much faster than the bombers can arrive earlier than the bombers.  When flying with little "fuel in reserve" those escorts may not be around when the CAP gets into position in time to meet the slower bombers.  The combat animation will not show these "out of fuel" fighters which have not been engaged in combat as leaving the combat animation.

quote:



The point about flying sweepers, LRCAP or escorts is to fly them at altitudes where they can meet the enemy fighters.  It is pointless to fly sweepers at 35k if the enemy CAP is layered at 20k and below.  Especially if your own bombers are flying at well under 20k.

Alfred

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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 11, 1944
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Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 194 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes (Incredibly good detection tie of course, with about 100 radars in hex! )

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
J2M3 Jack x 30
N1K1-J George x 34 (sweeping)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 46
Ki-100-I Tony x 32

All of these set to max altitude to get the bounce and continue to draw CAP up.

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 75
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 77
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 131
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
34 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 54 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 7 on standby, 6 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 40380.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (11 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38380.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 72 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 35400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (3 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 38440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

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Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 199 NM, estimated altitude 35,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 45 (sweepers)
Ki-100-I Tony x 44 (sweepers)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 75
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 122
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
34 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
10 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 3 on standby, 10 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 22000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 114 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 40400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (10 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 36000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 63 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 1 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 63 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 3 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 38000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 38000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes

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Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 185 NM, estimated altitude 34,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 33
Ki-100-I Tony x 28

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 74
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 3 on standby, 11 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 59 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 11 on standby, 8 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (13 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (2 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 38380 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 1 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 3 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (2 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23
A6M5 Zero x 8
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 433 (set as escort and messaged as sweeping, arriving before "strike")
D4Y3 Judy x 4
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2
Ki-100-I Tony x 44

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 64
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 73
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
21st FG/46th FS with P-38J Lightning (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters to 40440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (16 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (7 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 40000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
347th FG/67th FS with P-38J Lightning (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 33440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (11 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (18 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
18 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 22140.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 32100.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
21st FG/72nd FS with P-38J Lightning (10 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters to 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 12 (LR CAP ~35k)
A6M5c Zero x 28 ( 15k escort)
A6M8 Zero x 431 ( 15k set as escort and messaged as sweeping, arriving before "strike")
B6N2a Jill x 14
D4Y1 Judy x 14
D4Y3 Judy x 30
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 7 (LR CAP ~38k)
N1K1 Rex x 23 ( 15k escort)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 66
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 76
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 21
F4U-1A Corsair x 123
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 2 destroyed Very few A6M8 destroyed should be the obvious indicator something is wrong here. Also, combat so short hat LR CAP did not have time to dive, as I've seen them do on countless occasions in a similar setup
B6N2a Jill: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 8 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

+1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Could you post a full combat report, including the altitudes at which his CAP scrambles for the various strikes? I have never played the late game, but it is possible that the air-combat is too spread out in altitude. For example, you strike comes in at 16K while your LRCAP and Sweeps are at 35K. What may be happening is that some of his fighters are scrambled to the higher alititude during the sweeps. Not many of his fighters reach the altitude in time to participate in the battle: so a short battle occurs. This leaves his fighters spread out over various altitude bands below 35K after the short battle. Then your strike comes in at 16K. Many of these spread-out allied fighters dive on your strike. Your high altitude fighters are unable to reach the allied fighters diving down from lower altitudes, but your high altitude fighters are using up "passes," even though they are unable to engage because his fighters are diving as well. For example, your high-altitude fighters are diving down to 25K to engage his fighters, but his fighters have have dived to 16K, so no combat occurs, but your fighters use a "pass."

Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

+1

diluting the DL among many TFs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

+1

diluting the DL among many TFs.

An interesting thought there.

Do you have any dinah at max altitude searching there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I think that I have an idea what happened. I had a very similar result once with A6M2s sweeping ahead of DBs. The A6M2s hardly engaged and the DBs were decimated. In my case, as in yours, the raid came in under CAP that was patrolling or had scrambled much higher.

I think the phenomenon derives from a problem with how the game handles detection times and fighters sweeping ahead. The fighters sweeping ahead and the actual raid are treated as one combat. I think that the detection time is applied to the bombers, but is not applied to the fighters sweeping ahead of the bombers. As a result, enemies do not respond properly to fighters sweeping ahead. Sweeping fighters will climb, but only a little (not like CAP) to attack enemy fighters. In this case, as in mine, there seem to be few enemy fighters near the altitidue of the Zekes sweeping ahead, so the Zekes climb a little, find few enemies, and retire. The sweep ahead is wasted. The CAP fighters then react to the bombers who suffer from having few escorts.

In this case, it seems, you did not intend to induce the fighters to sweep ahead and were the victim of unfortunate circumstances when most of the bombers failed to fly.

Something to try, to test this theory, would be to have independent fighter sweeps come in low, ahead of a raid in which you induce fighters to sweep ahead. This will draw CAP down, and if they are not responding properly to the sweep ahead, the sweep ahead should then be able to bounce the enemy fighters. I will have to try this at the next opportunity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Yes. It appears that at least two of the combats may have been "merged" and hence allocated only 1 group of passes for both combats. Notice the Judies and A6M8s "sweeping ahead" in the combat report prior to the actual Judy raid: a combat report that lists the only "attacking aircraft" as 16 Tony 100s sweeping at 34,400 feet. Elements of the Judy strike package should not be appearing in that combat report.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Really sweet explanation there, Alfred.

I have often thought that mixing fighters of greatly differing attributes to cause the best planes in the mix to under perform. Is this a possibility, or is that too vague with too many variables?

For units on a strike package only, that meet from different bases and form up, does one unit impact the number of passes for the other units? For example they all do one pass and retire together as a group?

Or could the slowest cruise squadron impact the cruise speed for the entire strike package that forms up in effect shortening the number of passes (perhaps using potential "passes" to form up into a larger strike group)?

Optimum strikes always occur when there is no fighters present, and very little flak. Once enemy CAP is present the range (and warning times) become very critical to a successful strike....plus all the other variables: weather, altitude, skill, etc., etc., etc.

By far and and away the best, close, fighter escorts I ever get are from a single fighter model and all fighters and bombers flying from the same base or task force, same altitude, and not using drop tanks and inside normal range. Normally all those fighters have to be knocked out of the air before the enemy fighters are into the bombers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you think DL of the TFs is a prime factor in very few of your strike planes flying...

Have you tried flying lots of recon over the base? Recon planes are far less likely to get shot down than search planes, and will achieve reasonably high levels of DL on TFs in base hexes. I do it all the time.