RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 1:10:27 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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When I played Tiemanj he would steam past invasion beaches for a day and then steam back into them.

I don't think that is the case here, you are probably right with a deep invasion somewhere. Port Arthur could be exceptionally nasty with a landing cutting the rail line, but that would be super ballsy, and bring into play 8000av that is frozen for now. However, as part of a Soviet activation tactic? I doubt he could whittle the garrison down fast enough to activate the Soviets early at this point of the game.

You might consider railing in 4 divisions into a reconned base and let the Allies consider that. It might dissuade an invasion within six hexes of that area (along the rail lines)...move them back out after a few days since the allied fleet seems to be taking their time.

But my guess is he is going where there are no rails initially, except for very weakly held bases that might support the main invasions.

Good luck with the small strike.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2791

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 2:41:05 PM

obvert

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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

When I played Tiemanj he would steam past invasion beaches for a day and then steam back into them.

I don't think that is the case here, you are probably right with a deep invasion somewhere. Port Arthur could be exceptionally nasty with a landing cutting the rail line, but that would be super ballsy, and bring into play 8000av that is frozen for now. However, as part of a Soviet activation tactic? I doubt he could whittle the garrison down fast enough to activate the Soviets early at this point of the game.

You might consider railing in 4 divisions into a reconned base and let the Allies consider that. It might dissuade an invasion within six hexes of that area (along the rail lines)...move them back out after a few days since the allied fleet seems to be taking their time.

But my guess is he is going where there are no rails initially, except for very weakly held bases that might support the main invasions.

Good luck with the small strike.

It's really about 14k AV now. Lots of arrivals, so yes, it is putting into play a lot of troops. Of course about 3k AV are needed for garrisons, and some divisions are still filling out, so it's not as overwhelmingly flexible as it could be. Still, I've got two stacks of 3.5k AV supported by a ton of arty sitting in strat mode ready to go somewhere. I've got an ID in every coastal base on the West coast of Korea helping build forts (somewhat last minute since I was focused on the other coastline as the most likely invasion destination after Shikuka). I now need to get stuff up to the Manuchurian costs around Port Arthur.

I like the interplay of intel, recon and my troop movements. I won't stop any one invasion if he has enough prepped for it. I would guess (as you've mentioned before here) that he has troops prepped for multiple bases and will pick and choose based on what I've got around. So maybe if I really don't want him to go for a certain area I should move there now and let him notice.

On the other hand, if it is a place like Port Arthur , it would be interesting to throw a few CD capable units on the open hexes to the sides and invest 5k AV of troops a day before he lands. I might be assuming too much here but I think his success landing off base is mostly that those hexes were not occupied. If I have arty of any kind, a fort or two built, or even better, a few DP guns on those hexes. I'd guess a whole lot of divisions and tank units would be 100% disabled. That could get fun.

The one base I'm unable to defend is Chefoo. If he wants that he's got it. No question. So maybe it's best to keep other bases more attractive until the last minute.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/7/2019 2:42:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2792

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 2:48:58 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

Kamikaze units can still fly CAP, but you simply cannot train in Escort or Sweep. I have found no evidence kamikaze fighters ram bombers at a higher percentage than normal fighters.

After making a kamikaze run, even if all planes are lost, the squadron is still present ready to be resupplied with fresh planes. You can put 10% of a kamikaze squadron on search too, if you would like to. Do searching kamikaze planes attack spotted ships? That I don't know.

Not sure, but the amount of planes lost to search is staggering against the DS at this time in the war. If I want detection it costs 30 airframes a day.

The kami units flying CAP would have pilots that are trained to 45/65 with 60 defence and they'd fly 80% CAP in smaller industrial centres as additional CAP and advanced training. They'd fly at whatever altitude band I want based on the airframe and other planes in the base (i.e. Oscars at 5k and Jacks at 7k with Franks at 9k).

Their kami role would be secondary. I just can't fly CAP with dedicated training units, so the 10PP charge for kami conversion is very economical compared to buying 2E groups to use as IJAAF FB.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2793

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 7:44:01 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/7/2019 8:06:29 PM >

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Post #: 2794

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 8:38:38 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
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From: United States
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Betties and Peggies seam to be the ones getting through most often in my current Ironman game in August '45.

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Hans

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 8:42:50 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Betties and Peggies seam to be the ones getting through most often in my current Ironman game in August '45.

How did you make the game last so long? Nicely done.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 2796

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 7:17:21 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

Well, I don't have lots and lots of Frank Ia left, so I'll have to eat around the edges for a while yet!

Thanks for the update on this. Again, it helps to get some more or less objective data, although a small sample. There might be some time soon where I could set up a test. We'll see. But at least I also have the active game testbed. Nothing like the real deal to test ideas.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2797

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 9:33:29 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
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May 1, 1945

It's May, 1945!!! Still fighting!

The Japanese still hang onto a narrow 3k VP lead in this extended contest, and although I know that will soon be gone, it's a mark for me since my first time around the Allies were accumulating points quickly after horrific Japanese losses and jumping daily by hundreds in the VP count by this time in game. The lead is mostly based on a 3:1 advantage in troop loss points, even naval points, and almost even air points, with (so far) low strategic point losses. Base VPs are fickle and will diminish quickly as the Allies move forward and once supply lessens, so I have to concentrate on the permanent points.

Today I had four DB groups set to strike the rear trailers of the Allied mob, but only one group of Graces flew during one phase. That's a 1 for 8 strike ratio. Not happy.

The one group did fine, got through thanks to their escorts and likely sank four and damaged three more xAKs. There were a lot more ships out here and I'm frustrated at the "...could not find target and returned to base" message for the Judys, only 5 hexes away!?

Anyway. I'll move on and keep some set at limited range again for tomorrow. The Allied main body appears to continue on it's track due West, South of Daito Shoto now. No indication yet of a turn of direction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 1, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 108,71

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
LST-706
LST-474

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 108,71

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 35
B7A2 Grace x 23

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1A Corsair x 5
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
F6F-5 Hellcat x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 13 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Art Young, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Gabriel Franchere, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Robert Morris
xAK Cyril G. Hopkins, Bomb hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Iolanda, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK George Chaffey, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Hecuba, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Henry Bergh, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B7A2 Grace releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Cyril G. Hopkins
Nakasawa G. gives his life for the Emperor by ramming xAK Cyril G. Hopkins
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK George Chaffey
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Hecuba
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Henry Bergh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2798

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 10:10:24 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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Here is the shot of the area and the number of ships here. Could have been a much better day. Really frustrating.

I'll keep the group from Iwo on for tomorrow since their escorts are untouched. I'm also preparing for some strikes from mainland bases and getting the KB warmed up and Sam's added to most fighter groups for upcoming strike possibilities. So far the Allies have not tried to strike at any of the nearby shipping, and they show a CAP of about 2,000 fighters, so I don't know how much strike capability he's brought along. I'm guessing not a lot.

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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 10:13:46 AM

obvert

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Joined: 1/17/2011
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Honshu is going to be especially flush with troops soon. A lot more IDs to fill out. So if he's not landing now it'll be that much harder in about a month.

This will also eat into supply, but the armaments pool is still massive, so I'm nt too worried about that. As long as the Burma Army retreats successfully there should be no shortage of armaments points for the rest of the viable gametime.

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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 10:15:58 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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Just a quick update on Hammamatsu. The strike there caused no damage. Manpower is fickle, but also the B-29Bs were so harrased they only landed a few on target.

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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2801

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 10:31:32 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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May 2, 1945

On the 2nd more strikes hit the Allied fleets, and damage is done to a few more important ships, which is nice. Granted, there will be a zillion support ships of all types in this armada, so it's scratching the surface, but better than doing nothing.

Some sacrificial Kates also gave me a look at the DS CAP. Somewhat daunting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 2, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on TF, near Iwo-jima at 104,71

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 1,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
LCS(L)-32
LCS(L)-33
LSM(R)-190
LCS(L)-26
LCS(L)-55
LCS(L)-119
LCS(L)-31

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Truk , at 112,108

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 5

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 5 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Iwo-jima at 104,71

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 43
D4Y1 Judy x 20

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 5
F6F-5 Hellcat x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
AKE Admiral Williams, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DE Edmonds, Bomb hits 1
AM Heed, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AKE Charles McCormick, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DE George E. Davis, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
5 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VRF-12F with F6F-5 Hellcat (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 8000.
Raid is overhead
VRF-13FB with F4U-1D Corsair (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 13000.
Raid is overhead

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring AKE Admiral Williams

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Daito Shoto at 98,71

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 2

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 16
Corsair IV x 32
Hellcat I x 5
Hellcat F.II x 13
Seafire IIC x 11
Seafire L.III x 25
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
FM-2 Wildcat x 39
F4U-1A Corsair x 160
F4U-1D Corsair x 456
F6F-3 Hellcat x 422
F6F-5 Hellcat x 779

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/8/2019 11:12:18 AM >

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 11:23:46 AM

adarbrauner

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"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

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Post #: 2803

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 11:32:08 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2804

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 12:33:11 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

AFAIK it's just the escorts getting separated from the raid, just like when some packets of bombers get separated into smaller, separate raids. Escorts raiding alone = sweep.

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Post #: 2805

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 12:37:44 PM

mind_messing

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Now is absolutely the time to start throwing all the ships you have into the fray. He's in deep now, and anything that decides to return to port has to run a gauntlet past the Bonins. Depending on his follow settings, you can cause some massive issues and scatter his fleet out for air strikes to pick off.

Dismount the cutters and longboats from your remaining ships and stick a 37mm in them - they'll cause all sorts of havoc for the USN!

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2806

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 1:06:47 PM

GetAssista

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Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Dismount the cutters and longboats from your remaining ships and stick a 37mm in them - they'll cause all sorts of havoc for the USN!

Put samurais on longboats and invent a fearsome raiding unit to plunder those rich American towns!

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2807

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 1:22:11 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

I'm in general agreement with these conclusions based on what I've seen in my own game. I'd prioritize speed as well, considering that the main barrier to kamikaze strikes is Allied CAP and a faster airframe gives the Allies less time to respond.

Not convincied completely about speed being the key to getting through AA either: everything seems to die in droves to the Allied AA packages in the late-war regardless of how fast it flies.

Based on current knowledge of the kamikaze mechanic, I'd suspect that the low damage rolls from the Sonia and Willow are due to those airframes being classed as light bombers, and thus getting a damage roll for that category of aircraft. The increased effectiveness of 2E bombers likely stems from their increased durability and belonging to the medium bomber family.

The damage profile on the Essex-class is going to always be quite low as they've the same durability as a New York class BB (although with different armour values. It's a different kettle of fish with the thinner skinned CVE's and amphibs, which IMO is what you want to try to focus your kamikaze strikes on. A single Nate will never sink an Essex-class, but it might smash into a 30 point amphib loaded with troops and start some decent fires.

Agreed with the uselessness of the Sonia and Willow due to slow speed, except as a method to add mass to a strike. As for the damage profile, a hit is a hit.

With regards to your class of kami's, I'd take a more consolidated approach. There's two classes: 2E kamis (preferably Peggy and Frances) and everything else. The latter exist to give mass to attacks by the former. When I watch my kami attacks into large Allied CAPs, it tends to be the 2E's that break through.

Fighters as kamis is a difficult one. I'd never use frontline squadrons in the kami role, and only if my fighter pilot pools were supremely well stocked (IOW, 2k trained pilots in the pool plus 250 graduates a month) and I had good airframes aplenty.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2808

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:27:12 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Based on current knowledge of the kamikaze mechanic, I'd suspect that the low damage rolls from the Sonia and Willow are due to those airframes being classed as light bombers, and thus getting a damage roll for that category of aircraft. The increased effectiveness of 2E bombers likely stems from their increased durability and belonging to the medium bomber family.

With regards to your class of kami's, I'd take a more consolidated approach. There's two classes: 2E kamis (preferably Peggy and Frances) and everything else. The latter exist to give mass to attacks by the former. When I watch my kami attacks into large Allied CAPs, it tends to be the 2E's that break through.

Fighters as kamis is a difficult one. I'd never use frontline squadrons in the kami role, and only if my fighter pilot pools were supremely well stocked (IOW, 2k trained pilots in the pool plus 250 graduates a month) and I had good airframes aplenty.

Thanks. I notice this too with the 2Es.

I do think the Grace and Judy are good kamis, but they're more useful as DB considering the bomb loads. I like the 2 x 250kg on the Grace late as it has a higher chance to hit. Then the Judy, when they do hit, make a big dent. The two together are much stronger than a lot of torpedo carrying planes late. I use TBs to provide width to the Altitude bands for strikes, sending the 2E Frances and Peggy either high or low, and the 1E TB can fit anywhere between 1-25k, depending on CAP tendencies and targets.

With kamis I now have an overabundance of training groups. The huge dump of Willows, Spruce, and all of the other crap trainers has arrived, and they're ALL training low naval. Some will be used for training strafe/defense for trained fighter pilots now as well.

All 2E training groups were switched to FB, and all of the 10 plane groups will be decent fighters set up as kamis to fly CAP. So those might fly the odd kami mission too, and I do have loads of Oscars and early A6M variants available I may as well use if the VP return might be good enough (and to apply mass to strikes).

_____________________________

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(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2809

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:32:01 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

AFAIK it's just the escorts getting separated from the raid, just like when some packets of bombers get separated into smaller, separate raids. Escorts raiding alone = sweep.

Not quite correct. The threshold for triggering the sweep ahead is pretty straight forward. It is still a coordinated raid, and definitely not a cooperative raid or escorts getting separated. At this height, flying into heavy cap it is probably a negative...but have them escorting in a max altitude kamikaze or torpedo strike, well then, it is what I have called a poor mans sweep for years in my AAR. Attribution goes to Mr. Kane for being the first to pioneer this tactic that I know of.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 2810

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:48:27 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

I'm in general agreement with these conclusions based on what I've seen in my own game. I'd prioritize speed as well, considering that the main barrier to kamikaze strikes is Allied CAP and a faster airframe gives the Allies less time to respond.

Not convincied completely about speed being the key to getting through AA either: everything seems to die in droves to the Allied AA packages in the late-war regardless of how fast it flies.

Based on current knowledge of the kamikaze mechanic, I'd suspect that the low damage rolls from the Sonia and Willow are due to those airframes being classed as light bombers, and thus getting a damage roll for that category of aircraft. The increased effectiveness of 2E bombers likely stems from their increased durability and belonging to the medium bomber family.

The damage profile on the Essex-class is going to always be quite low as they've the same durability as a New York class BB (although with different armour values. It's a different kettle of fish with the thinner skinned CVE's and amphibs, which IMO is what you want to try to focus your kamikaze strikes on. A single Nate will never sink an Essex-class, but it might smash into a 30 point amphib loaded with troops and start some decent fires.

Agreed with the uselessness of the Sonia and Willow due to slow speed, except as a method to add mass to a strike. As for the damage profile, a hit is a hit.

With regards to your class of kami's, I'd take a more consolidated approach. There's two classes: 2E kamis (preferably Peggy and Frances) and everything else. The latter exist to give mass to attacks by the former. When I watch my kami attacks into large Allied CAPs, it tends to be the 2E's that break through.

Fighters as kamis is a difficult one. I'd never use frontline squadrons in the kami role, and only if my fighter pilot pools were supremely well stocked (IOW, 2k trained pilots in the pool plus 250 graduates a month) and I had good airframes aplenty.

Have to 100% disagree with you...the SAP bomb loads always does substantially more damage than a a 250kg gp bomb load kamikaze. Peggy T 100% of the time over the Peggy.

Can't agree with using Nates either, except for absolute desperation in the pools.

I don't see what fighter pilot pools have to do about using fighters as kamikazes except if you are using converted training groups as kamikaze CAP.

Your assumption that the damage correlates to class is also incorrect. The Toka and Ki115 are both LB and do substantial damage, tons more than the willow and sonia if they can actually get a hit. 42 Sonias hit twice for example. 40 KI115 hit close to 50%. Shinden hits 80% of the time flying into a tough flak TF. Also the Peggy T does twice as much damage, or more, than the Peggy.

I realize I didn't post any actual data for people to draw their own conclusions from, not sure that I ever will as it is pretty time consuming...

Now, why do Peggys and Frances actually penetrate the fighter CAP to deliver attacks is something I didn't look at. I wanted to examine actual planes and their damage profile. I suspect an equally sized Frank A or better yet R kamikaze would do even better and have the exact same damage profile as the Peggy (but not the Peggy T) and only cost 1 engine.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/8/2019 2:50:20 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2811

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:49:56 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

AFAIK it's just the escorts getting separated from the raid, just like when some packets of bombers get separated into smaller, separate raids. Escorts raiding alone = sweep.

Not quite correct. The threshold for triggering the sweep ahead is pretty straight forward. It is still a coordinated raid, and definitely not a cooperative raid or escorts getting separated. At this height, flying into heavy cap it is probably a negative...but have them escorting in a max altitude kamikaze or torpedo strike, well then, it is what I have called a poor mans sweep for years in my AAR. Attribution goes to Mr. Kane for being the first to pioneer this tactic that I know of.

It's happened periodically to me for years. Would you call it a tactic? Can Mr Kane, or anyone, make it happen 100% of the time?

I've found some parameters that make it more likely (expert pilots, coming in above CAP settings, normal range for escorts, etc) but nothing that makes it work every time. Fighters can still do well though above CAP settings even if tied to the bombers more closely.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/8/2019 2:50:26 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2812

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:51:32 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

AFAIK it's just the escorts getting separated from the raid, just like when some packets of bombers get separated into smaller, separate raids. Escorts raiding alone = sweep.

Not quite correct. The threshold for triggering the sweep ahead is pretty straight forward. It is still a coordinated raid, and definitely not a cooperative raid or escorts getting separated. At this height, flying into heavy cap it is probably a negative...but have them escorting in a max altitude kamikaze or torpedo strike, well then, it is what I have called a poor mans sweep for years in my AAR. Attribution goes to Mr. Kane for being the first to pioneer this tactic that I know of.

It's happened periodically to me for years. Would you call it a tactic? Can Mr Kane, or anyone, make it happen 100% of the time?

I've found some parameters that make it more likely (expert pilots, coming in above CAP settings, normal range for escorts, etc) but nothing that makes it work every time. Fighters can still do well though above CAP settings even if tied to the bombers more closely.

I can get it to happen 75%+ and have done so in my game with Jocke. Much easier to do later in the war than earlier, but that is probably situational as there isn't much need in early war for Japan.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/8/2019 2:54:40 PM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2813

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:52:55 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

I do think the Grace and Judy are good kamis, but they're more useful as DB considering the bomb loads. I like the 2 x 250kg on the Grace late as it has a higher chance to hit. Then the Judy, when they do hit, make a big dent. The two together are much stronger than a lot of torpedo carrying planes late. I use TBs to provide width to the Altitude bands for strikes, sending the 2E Frances and Peggy either high or low, and the 1E TB can fit anywhere between 1-25k, depending on CAP tendencies and targets.

Yeah, in my view there's no point to using IJ dive bombers as kami airframes. They'll die to flak in either DB or kami profiles, so may as well get the accuracy bonus from dive bombing.

Keep the 2E's high IMO. My logic is as follows:
-The Toka/115b is slightly faster than the Hellcat (the most common deathstar CAP plane).
-The 2Es are a bit more durable, armour and slower, but they've got defensive guns (even if they're not great). From what I've seen they do a good job tangling with high CAP and wasting their time and ammo.

quote:

With kamis I now have an overabundance of training groups. The huge dump of Willows, Spruce, and all of the other crap trainers has arrived, and they're ALL training low naval. Some will be used for training strafe/defense for trained fighter pilots now as well.

Train LowNav instead, that way you can throw them into kami squadrons if needed, or perform a hybrid sweep/naval strike in a pinch. You'll still boost Def so it's all good.

I'd also pre-emptively upgrade them to 2E's, Toka, 115s ect if you have them yet. There's a PP cost but Japan should be swimming in PP at this stage.

I'd also switch them to kami squadrons now rather than later - the limitation on the number of squadrons you can convert can limit your ability to sustain multi-day strikes.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2814

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 2:54:53 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

It's happened periodically to me for years. Would you call it a tactic? Can Mr Kane, or anyone, make it happen 100% of the time?

I've found some parameters that make it more likely (expert pilots, coming in above CAP settings, normal range for escorts, etc) but nothing that makes it work every time. Fighters can still do well though above CAP settings even if tied to the bombers more closely.

I can get it to happen 75%+ and have done so in my game with Jocke. Much easier to do later in the war than earlier.

If you have high strikes but want close escort, can you also make it not happen?

I struggled with this at Shikuka where the entire KB escort went in sweeping ahead of the bombers, then the bombers got badly demolished.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/8/2019 2:55:58 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 2815

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 3:00:05 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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With respect to Dive Bombers, you are reducing their damage profile by switching them to kamikazes, since they then carry the GP bomb over the AP or SAP.

Not mentioned, here, but an example of is posted in the recent strikes, a percentage of pilots will decide to give their life for the Emperor and act as Kamikaze, but carrying an AP bomb instead of a GP bomb.

And finally, some divebombers might return, no kamikazes will.

Two cases for making divebombers kamikazes exist however, no trained dive bomber pilots left, and if you absolutely have to have a high altitude attack and have nothing else at hand (there are many other planes better suited for that).

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2816

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 3:04:05 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you have high strikes but want close escort, can you also make it not happen?

I struggled with this at Shikuka where the entire KB escort went in sweeping ahead of the bombers, then the bombers got badly demolished.

Sure. If you can link me to the post, I will look at it. Pretty easy to do for a CV strike, much harder to do for a kitchen sink multibase attack.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2817

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 4:45:21 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

"16 x A6M5b Zero sweeping at 10000 feet"

?????

Escorts can sometimes sweep ahead of the arriving strike. This can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation. It's not easy to control though.

AFAIK it's just the escorts getting separated from the raid, just like when some packets of bombers get separated into smaller, separate raids. Escorts raiding alone = sweep.

Not quite correct. The threshold for triggering the sweep ahead is pretty straight forward. It is still a coordinated raid, and definitely not a cooperative raid or escorts getting separated. At this height, flying into heavy cap it is probably a negative...but have them escorting in a max altitude kamikaze or torpedo strike, well then, it is what I have called a poor mans sweep for years in my AAR. Attribution goes to Mr. Kane for being the first to pioneer this tactic that I know of.

First I recall hearing (or at least paying attention to it in the flux of life!) the existence of sweep-ahead code in AE. I assume that's been discussed with devs at some point? What kind of threshold are you talking about? I don't even know what the element is for the threshold!

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(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2818

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 6:00:30 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

I'm in general agreement with these conclusions based on what I've seen in my own game. I'd prioritize speed as well, considering that the main barrier to kamikaze strikes is Allied CAP and a faster airframe gives the Allies less time to respond.

Not convincied completely about speed being the key to getting through AA either: everything seems to die in droves to the Allied AA packages in the late-war regardless of how fast it flies.

Based on current knowledge of the kamikaze mechanic, I'd suspect that the low damage rolls from the Sonia and Willow are due to those airframes being classed as light bombers, and thus getting a damage roll for that category of aircraft. The increased effectiveness of 2E bombers likely stems from their increased durability and belonging to the medium bomber family.

The damage profile on the Essex-class is going to always be quite low as they've the same durability as a New York class BB (although with different armour values. It's a different kettle of fish with the thinner skinned CVE's and amphibs, which IMO is what you want to try to focus your kamikaze strikes on. A single Nate will never sink an Essex-class, but it might smash into a 30 point amphib loaded with troops and start some decent fires.

Agreed with the uselessness of the Sonia and Willow due to slow speed, except as a method to add mass to a strike. As for the damage profile, a hit is a hit.

With regards to your class of kami's, I'd take a more consolidated approach. There's two classes: 2E kamis (preferably Peggy and Frances) and everything else. The latter exist to give mass to attacks by the former. When I watch my kami attacks into large Allied CAPs, it tends to be the 2E's that break through.

Fighters as kamis is a difficult one. I'd never use frontline squadrons in the kami role, and only if my fighter pilot pools were supremely well stocked (IOW, 2k trained pilots in the pool plus 250 graduates a month) and I had good airframes aplenty.

Have to 100% disagree with you...the SAP bomb loads always does substantially more damage than a a 250kg gp bomb load kamikaze. Peggy T 100% of the time over the Peggy.

Can't agree with using Nates either, except for absolute desperation in the pools.

I don't see what fighter pilot pools have to do about using fighters as kamikazes except if you are using converted training groups as kamikaze CAP.

Your assumption that the damage correlates to class is also incorrect. The Toka and Ki115 are both LB and do substantial damage, tons more than the willow and sonia if they can actually get a hit. 42 Sonias hit twice for example. 40 KI115 hit close to 50%. Shinden hits 80% of the time flying into a tough flak TF. Also the Peggy T does twice as much damage, or more, than the Peggy.

I realize I didn't post any actual data for people to draw their own conclusions from, not sure that I ever will as it is pretty time consuming...

Now, why do Peggys and Frances actually penetrate the fighter CAP to deliver attacks is something I didn't look at. I wanted to examine actual planes and their damage profile. I suspect an equally sized Frank A or better yet R kamikaze would do even better and have the exact same damage profile as the Peggy (but not the Peggy T) and only cost 1 engine.

Sorry, for clarification I was meaning in the sense that if it's impossible to control bombload, then why bother? I was meaning with the Nate in the spirit of Alfred's comment regarding kamikaze attacks in Mike's AAR - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4534455

The Nate example was to illustrate that kamikaze attacks rarely discomfort large Allied warships, but can be fatal to the softer-skinned ships. I've spent some time thinking about this, and in my view the issue is that in that most IJ players have expectations of the Franklin as the norm, when it really wasn't. A quick look at the list of ships sunk by kamikaze reveals lots of destroyers, cargos and LST's. Attacking those ships with AP or SAP is illogical as you're wanting a bigger boom, in game terms the device with more effect and less penetration.

The fact that damage correlates to plane class is from Alfred - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4534617

The relevant section is quoted here :"A kamikaze plane which hits gets only 1 single hit, not multiple hits to reflect ordnance + fuel + mass. The damage inflicted (don't forget there are always die rolls in Grigsby algorithms) is determined from the type of hit which is abstracted. There is no differentiation made between different aircraft models of the same aircraft type. Except for determining the type of abstracted hit to be applied, aircraft models without a bomb are not discriminated against compared to those aircraft models of the same aircraft type with a bomb. "

Based on Alfred's comments, I suspect it would be hard to get even a standard measure of damage from kamikaze hits, given the large number of variables and the "Grigsby Constant" involved.

Hit rates being tied to speed

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2819

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/8/2019 7:18:37 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The relevant section is quoted here :"A kamikaze plane which hits gets only 1 single hit, not multiple hits to reflect ordnance + fuel + mass. The damage inflicted (don't forget there are always die rolls in Grigsby algorithms) is determined from the type of hit which is abstracted. There is no differentiation made between different aircraft models of the same aircraft type. Except for determining the type of abstracted hit to be applied, aircraft models without a bomb are not discriminated against compared to those aircraft models of the same aircraft type with a bomb. "

And my point is that isn't wholly accurate. Not once, in over 200 kamikaze attacks, has a GP bomb kamikaze outperformed the same plane carrying a SAP bomb load. Not once. The difference is substantial and meaningful in both warships and cargo ships.

The Peggy underperforms in damage compared to the SAP carrying Peggy T. A fighter carrying two 250 gp does almost identical damage as does the Helen even though it is in a different class. The Ki115 does substantially more damage than the Sonia with 4 60kg or single planes with the 250 kg gp.

The opposite is true too: the 800 GP Judy underperforms substantially the 800 AP carrying Dive bomber. I tested it against warships and transmarine cargo ships. The difference is substantial, meaningful, and always there.

The last sentence seems 100% correct if and only if you compare it to a GP carrying kamikaze. However, here you can only compare it to equivalent single engine and twin engine as no recon carries a bombload to my knowledge.

Now it could well be the fact that there are some planes that carry the SAP and that is a bug/or code never finished/ or a mistake...in which case Alfred's statement comes closer to being accurate...but still there is no way a Ki115 is equivalent to a Sonia despite being both classified as light bombers.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/8/2019 7:33:34 PM >

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Post #: 2820

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