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- 4/7/2001 3:15:00 AM

murx

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From: Braunschweig/Germany
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Berrets only for special forces ? Uh, not in Germany - all use it (or nearly all) after they are no longer declared mere recruits. Sure berrets are not te best to use in winter - but IF you are out in winter its due to one of two reaons. 1. training - and if you getting cold its a bad training ;) 2. real mission - you better wear your helmet. For the German WWI & WWII helmet. It was introduced late in the WWI as the 'Pickelhaube' was very bad. The design and protection of the 'new' helmet was very efficient and thus most nations adopted the design more or less. For slave labour - the registry machines that calculated most of these labourers as also a large amount of the bureaucratic part of the holocaust, were made by IBM and only after '39 (at that time the slave labour/holocaust had started already) US stopped to sell to Germany. And the Swiss had bought tons of gold that once belonged to the massacred humans without questioning were al this German gold came from ... but anyways they sure wouldn't have cared. Even nowadays one can say the US Justice Department runs 'slave' labour camps for 'criminals' ... not even questioning the death sentence in some states ... It's very easily done to tell others how bad they treat humans or even break human rights - but it's harder to see it in ones very own country - harder even to do anything about it ... murx

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Post #: 31

- 4/7/2001 3:47:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???

God help the soldiers if they are going to be wearing that same beret! I was in the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M back in the late 70's. The female cadets wore berets that looked like the top of a button mushroom. All round and stiff, quite ugly. Later they lost the berets and went to the same hats as the male cadets, just about the same time that they gained the priviledge of wearing riding boots their senior year, as the male cadets had for many years. thanks, John.

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Post #: 32

- 4/7/2001 5:59:00 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Oops! My humble apologies to you, Captain Brian. I have the utmost respect for the Marines, and yes, I DO have a tendency to sometimes go into Dennis Miller rant mode, but please bear with me. The Army's got a lot of problems, but, these days, it IS an unfortunate fact that anyone on the inside who dares to expose the issues to the zero-defect mindset of the military either gets ignored or has their career ladder shot out from under them. As far as Dave Hackworth is concerned, I am an unabashed fan of his, BUT I also know that his opinions are NOT 100% bullet-proof. However, I still think that "About Face" is the best military memoir ever written by an American, and I still think a movie oughta be made about this man's distinguished military career.

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Post #: 33

- 4/7/2001 6:47:00 AM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
Joined: 10/2/2000
From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???

Why do you always seem to make assine comments ? Always trying to stir things up or trying to be funny ! That thing you call a "Beret" for WACS in the time frame you describe was far from a beret in the traditional sense. In fact....it barely resembled a beret and was not worn like the beret many people envision. However, for "your" nformation.....Border Cavalry Squadrons (11th ACR and 2nd ACR) deployed along the East German and Czechoslovakian borders in the 70's and 80's were authorized and required to wear black berets. We wore them, and we were proud of our mission. We were the speed bumps that would stop a Warsaw Pact invasion into the FRG. Delta 3-2

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Post #: 34

- 4/7/2001 6:53:00 AM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline

Never forget that the French Army's standard headgear are berets ! They weer them well but, couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag. Hated working with the bastards. Oh, and the Legion ? They're foreigners and have always been exceptional, elite soldiers. But French Regulars....they suck and so do their berets ! Delta 3-2

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Post #: 35

- 4/7/2001 6:57:00 AM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Matt,My perspective is from the cash viewpoint: the CoS's whine and blow snot about not enough money ("we're gutting ourselves") yet we can afford: new hats for the army and $650,000 for a new AF symbol. (Don't even get me started on boondoggles like "Tops in Blue")

You forgot to mention the new pattern cammies for the Marines....isn't that an expensive venture ? BDU's arent' good enough for 'em ! Delta 3-2

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Post #: 36

- 4/7/2001 7:24:00 AM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
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quote:

Surprising how people forget that Hackworth loudly and very publicly lambasted the Army for its equipment buys in the late 80s: M1, M2/3, HMMV among others.Anyway, Army officers/NCOs ARE speaking up, read any copy of the Army Times. A couple years back, a Major who just came out of Staff College was telling us that the army commissioned a survey of these guys/women to see why they and their troops were dissatisifed. The Army CoS got an earful. Whether he acts on it is something O3-O5s can't really decide; but he knows.[/B]

For the record....I loved my TOW Hummers. Best thing the Army ever did was to replace M151A2s with HMMWVs ! The taxpayer got their money's worth with the HMMWV series of vehicles. Anyway....the entire state of the military is in a crisis. I remember working only a few short years ago with troops from 24 ID, and a Platoon Sergeant told me with great dismay: "My troops have little motivation, I'm short on soldiers, and the ones I have tell me: "Come on Sarge, I'm only in it for the college money." ! For those of you who want a much better read on the state of affairs from the viewpoint of an unnamed LTC at the Pentagon....read his article at: www.snipersparadise.com/articles/aska.htm It's sad, but true. Delta 3-2

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Post #: 37

- 4/7/2001 8:44:00 AM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA 3-2: You forgot to mention the new pattern cammies for the Marines....isn't that an expensive venture ? BDU's arent' good enough for 'em ! Delta 3-2

Guess the Marines decided they'd had enough of taking hand-me-downs and wanted an actual decent combat uniform for once Delta. I've seen pictures of the proposed new cammies, and they're certainly not a fashion statement. The big selling point of them is the design of the uniform itself. (pockets, removable sleeves, reinforced joint areas etc.) The cammies I was issued (89-94) were crap. Spend anytime in the field with them, and they were tattered. Now, as to your comment about cost to the tax payer. The Marine Corps only gives a clothing allowance once a year. In my time it was only $158. That wasn't near enough to replace cammies, much less the socks, skivvies, t-shirts, and other uniforms that needed replacing yearly. The rest of it came out of our own pockets. So I don't see how the taxpayer's footing much of the bill on this one. Not to mention that Marines have the lowest standard of living of any service. Hmmmm.... I guess it would just be too much to ask to let them have a decent, durable, utility uniform.

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Post #: 38

- 4/7/2001 8:51:00 AM

CaptainBrian

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/27/2000
From: California
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quote:

Originally posted by USMCGrunt: Guess the Marines decided they'd had enough of taking hand-me-downs and wanted an actual decent combat uniform for once Delta. I've seen pictures of the proposed new cammies, and they're certainly not a fashion statement. The big selling point of them is the design of the uniform itself. (pockets, removable sleeves, reinforced joint areas etc.) The cammies I was issued (89-94) were crap. Spend anytime in the field with them, and they were tattered. Now, as to your comment about cost to the tax payer. The Marine Corps only gives a clothing allowance once a year. In my time it was only $158. That wasn't near enough to replace cammies, much less the socks, skivvies, t-shirts, and other uniforms that needed replacing yearly. The rest of it came out of our own pockets. So I don't see how the taxpayer's footing much of the bill on this one. Not to mention that Marines have the lowest standard of living of any service. Hmmmm.... I guess it would just be too much to ask to let them a decent, durable, utility uniform.

The way I understand it is there will be a phase in period...i.e. NLT XXXX date you have to have them, much like the old poplin cammies were phased out in the mid 80's. Although the current utility uniform is not cheap ($45 a set), the new one is supposed to cost the same. As with everything else new, we'll see what really happens. Recruits are supposed to start receiving it this fall. By the time the uniform is mandatory, the majority of Marines having to pay out of pocket are ones in the career force. Relatively few one term Marines will take it in the ass on this one (hopefully).

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Post #: 39

- 4/7/2001 10:39:00 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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I'm curious. Where can I find pictures of the new Marine cammies? I went to the official USMC web site, BUT, I think I'd be a little old for a recruit. Nice flash intro, though. They can try recruiting my daughter in about 14 years.

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Post #: 40

- 4/7/2001 11:18:00 AM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
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quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: I'm curious. Where can I find pictures of the new Marine cammies? I went to the official USMC web site, BUT, I think I'd be a little old for a recruit. Nice flash intro, though. They can try recruiting my daughter in about 14 years.

KG, There are some good pictures at this site: http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utility/UtesPicsAll.htm Or, do a search on new Marine Corps uniform. I got about 300 sites back.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

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Post #: 41

- 4/7/2001 11:05:00 PM

murx

Posts: 245
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From: Braunschweig/Germany
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Is it me or does the hat shown on the link look ugly, non-military and stupid ??? I don't like hats anyway ... ;) And for the Desert Camo - uh, is the jacket a bit too long ?? The Woodland Camo seems to be the proper length... And has the Desert Camo guy big feet ??? Or is he wearing canoes for shoes ... Ah, and one last thing - the guy with the M16 (buttom left picture of the first nine) - why is Private Stupid unable to hold his rifle properly ? The belt (or however it is named properly in English) of his rifle hangs down like two feet and might catch anything up to the size of a tree when he tries to move through a forrest (probably getting him down to the ground)... murx

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Post #: 42

- 4/7/2001 11:07:00 PM

KG Erwin

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Thanks, USMC Grunt. I'll check it out. BTW, I sent an e-mail to Dave Hackworth, extending an invitation to the forum, just to make a brief comment on the games or whatever. This was his reply:"thx but busy finishing a book. got to pass. Hack" . Well, at least I tried. Maybe we should try to get some other notables to make an appearance here. It would be interesting, and a great plug for Matrix and this forum. Personally, I would love for Jim Dunnigan to give a brief review of SPWaW. Any thoughts on this?

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Post #: 43

- 4/8/2001 7:18:00 AM

CaptainBrian

Posts: 59
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From: California
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quote:

Originally posted by murx: Is it me or does the hat shown on the link look ugly, non-military and stupid ??? I don't like hats anyway ... ;)murx

Can't be any less military looking than that most un-military appearing of headgear, the beret. Plus who cares what it looks like as long as it's functional.

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Post #: 44

- 4/8/2001 1:52:00 PM

KG Erwin

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Pardon me for saying, but the new Marine camo scheme looks a lot like some of the Waffen SS combat uniforms of WWII vintage. I know we adopted the "Fritz" helmet years ago, so I think it's pretty cool. The Germans always had a great fashion style for the military, well, apart from the old Pickelhaube helmets of WWI.

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Post #: 45

- 4/8/2001 5:30:00 PM

harrymc

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From: Germany
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I couldn't let this one go by. I am an active duty INFANTRY NCO in the US Army and I have heard all these arguments before. I served in the FRG along the wall and I saw plenty of black berets then. I have nothing but high regard for my brothers in the ranger, airborne and special forces branches. They do the dirty work no one else wants, BUT, it's only a hat. The chief says we will wear it so we will. He probably should have chosen a different color but he didn't, so we will wear it proudly as we should. As for the berets being made in PRC, that is a politicol matter that must be addressed in congress, we in the military will do as ordered as always. I don't think that twenty years from now anyone will even remember why there was such a flap over a hat anyway, no one remembers the controversy over BDU's when they came out in the early 80's do they?

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Post #: 46

- 4/9/2001 2:50:00 AM

murx

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Berrets not military, uhm, might be from the US point of view as they haven't used them widely till now... but hats remind me of the Wild West (movies mainly) - and the (non)military behavior of those desperados and a miliatary organisation don't go well together (at least in my view of things). murx

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Post #: 47

- 4/9/2001 5:23:00 AM

CaptainBrian

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From: California
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quote:

Originally posted by murx: Berrets not military, uhm, might be from the US point of view as they haven't used them widely till now... but hats remind me of the Wild West (movies mainly) - and the (non)military behavior of those desperados and a miliatary organisation don't go well together (at least in my view of things). murx

What breaks up and disrupts the outline of a person's head more, a beret or a wide-brimmed, floppy hat? Think, it might be a new experience :confused: As far as the "Wild West" comparison... That is the most ludicrous example to date of your ridiculous and pathetic stabs at the United States. If you are going to be critical, we have enough real faults and shortcomings for you to pick on :) Be a little more creative and realistic in the future.

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Post #: 48

- 4/9/2001 11:09:00 PM

Akmatov

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Can't resist a comment on Hackworth. I'll never forget watching him during Desert Shield pontificate about how the US Army was going to get its butt kicked by the 'battle hardened' better equipped Iraqi army because the Army had had the gall to purchase armored equipment he didn't endorse. Then he had the balls to explain after the victory that the Army had since his original broadcast, like 2 months before, shipped out completely new equipment to completely replace all the armor in Saudi. Right like that was even possilbe, they were scrambling like hell just to get the heavy stuff over there one time. The guy may have been a fine officer once, he certainly claimed to have been one - don't know the facts personally, but from what I can see he became a bitter, angry fruitcake.

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Post #: 49

- 4/10/2001 12:07:00 AM

Grumble

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Akmatov, Shack, bro. Earlier in this thread I posted about how fans of his, (admittedly I used to be one) conveniently forgot about his bitching over the M1, M2/3 and HMMWV. More alarming was his attacks on a Navy Admiral implying he was wearing decorations he wasn't entitled to-untrue once the facts were discovered. I also believe he's now just a bitter curmudgeon.

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Post #: 50

- 4/10/2001 3:03:00 AM

Christopher

Posts: 370
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From: Verden, Lower Saxony, Germany
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Hmmm.... I think some of the guys in the upper part of this topic take it a bit too serious, where the berets are produced. In my eyes thats the damn last thing, a soldier has to worry about. And perhaps you should take care of getting back on mother earth again. Its not "the good Americans" against the "red menace" from far-east anymore. We really dont need WW3. And perhaps you should take a look at what good points communism or better socialism contains. The idea is very good, just the execution... ;)

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Post #: 51

- 4/10/2001 9:18:00 AM

KG Erwin

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Akmatov, have you read any of Col. Hackworth's books? I would highly recommend you reading "About Face", and then reconsidering your opinion. Yikes, I sound like a Hackworth defender, and for better or worse, I guess I am, DESPITE the Admiral Boorda incident. I'm gonna continue to try to get him to appear on this forum, but it may be difficult.

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Post #: 52

- 4/10/2001 10:56:00 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
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From: Louisiana, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Christopher: Hmmm.... I think some of the guys in the upper part of this topic take it a bit too serious, where the berets are produced. In my eyes thats the damn last thing, a soldier has to worry about. And perhaps you should take care of getting back on mother earth again. Its not "the good Americans" against the "red menace" from far-east anymore. We really dont need WW3. And perhaps you should take a look at what good points communism or better socialism contains. The idea is very good, just the execution... ;)

Yes, the US and the PRC are morally equivalent. I can buy that. Sure.

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Post #: 53

- 4/10/2001 7:05:00 PM

Christopher

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quote:

Originally posted by JW: Yes, the US and the PRC are morally equivalent. I can buy that. Sure.

Oh no!!! You are living with the strange idea that US has any conscience when it comes to their interests? Ha! dream on!

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Post #: 54

- 4/10/2001 7:54:00 PM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Akmatov: The guy may have been a fine officer once, he certainly claimed to have been one - don't know the facts personally, but from what I can see he became a bitter, angry fruitcake.

Ak....I hate to agree with you but, I do. Hackworth has been wrong more than once...but, nevertheless....he continues to get my respect because as an American soldier he has done what others haven't had the guts to do. Delta 3-2

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Post #: 55

- 4/10/2001 7:59:00 PM

DELTA32

Posts: 81
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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by JW: You may not know that the black berets, 5 million of them, are being made by a company located in the People's Republic of China. Now I think it would be absolutely insulting for US soldiers to be forced to wear berets made in the country that is currently holding American airmen hostage. Write your congressman.

JW......it's a little late to writing your Senators and Reps now. Most of these anti-American, anti-labor bastards have been supporting Most Favored Nation status, and FREE TRADE for Communist China for years. My congressman, Phil English, R-21, Pennsylvania has consistently voted to support duty-free imports of goods made in Communist China over his career (8 years). You all should have been watching American industry leave your home regions and move to mainland China...only to be brought back here to undercut the remaining manufacturers trying to keep their businesses running. Screw Congress.....but, write them and call them anyway....if they get enough complaints they may change their ways. But, I doubt it....PAC money speaks louder than words. Delta 3-2

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Post #: 56

- 4/12/2001 6:22:00 PM

JTGEN

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A bit out of the topic, but I could not help noticing this discussion on M1. I do not knot who this general is but I must say that I agree on M1 being a bad choice for a tank. It worked in desert war but in Finland I would rather take T72 than M1. M1 is 20 tons too heavy, it has (to my knowledge) gas turbine engine. I do not think they consulted a single competent logistics person on that choise. And in different terrain there is no help from being able to shoot from 1 km longer distance if you newer get the chance to do so. And about the berets and employment in US. You might know a lot about war but not a bout economy. I suggest that you do some basic study and you are glad it is too expensive to make those berets in US.

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Post #: 57

- 4/14/2001 12:00:00 AM

murx

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CaptainBrian, hehe, no I'm not that bad minded on the US, but there is still somekind of Rambo-image on your soldiers ... just look at your boot-camps (for criminals) and training camps for marines. I don't think calling someone dirt, maggots and all that stuff makes him a better soldier, neither mind breaking physical training. But it is hard to get rid of a bad image. Also one must keep in mind that a big part of the US military image results directly from Hollywood movies. The depicted soldiers they rarely 'act' military like but still makes the watchers think US military is that way. Additionally it seems that within NATO training operations the US units sometimes make awful faults - which in my view of things result out of a bit 'arrogant' concept on their own training and equipment. Not saying all US think that way - hey, even in our 'Bundeswehr' are some assholes even in the higher ranks (esp. in higher ranks ???) , I can tell you... What bugs me most is that we Europeans don't pull of enough responsibility within UN operations - we leave most of that up to US units. And that's big fault of our own - and US can surely blame us on that - they are sending men into the dangerous missions... murx

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Post #: 58

- 4/14/2001 4:12:00 AM

DELTA32

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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Christopher: You are living with the strange idea that US has any conscience when it comes to their interests? Ha! dream on!

Gee whiz ! Build any Extermination Camps lately ? Go visit Dachau if you need a blueprint for one. Delta 3-2

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- 4/14/2001 8:59:00 PM

Christopher

Posts: 370
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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA 3-2: Gee whiz ! Build any Extermination Camps lately ? Go visit Dachau if you need a blueprint for one. Delta 3-2

Hey dude! Trying to provoke me, eh? OK, probably this wont get into ur brain, but nevertheless Ill try it. WW1+2, Gulf War, Vietnam War, Kosovo War and the whole rest of useless waste of human lifes were ALL caused by NATIONAL interests. Im not only talking about such obvious **** like it happened in germany, but also about things that have happened recently and are happening in the moment. Economic interests are forced through under the cover of human-rights that should have been broken by the "enemy" who causes problems for the money. MONEY is MORE IMPORTANT than the HUMAN RIGHTS. That is not right and has to be changed. And when I see such **** like it stands in the "sorry china" topic, Im not far away from throwing up. I will not waste time to tell you what incredible cruel things have happened in my otherwise so liberal city under hitler. It would probably blow ur limited imagination. Just try to tell me ur last comment face to face. Youre in no way better than the average neo-nazi! You have probably never heard the word TOLERANCE

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Post #: 60