Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

I wasn't aware of this game until it was announced here, but it caught my interest. But I am not prepared to spend more money on anything when I can legally purchase the very same product somewhere else for a fraction of the prize offered here, no matter what issues about past/current rights the involved companies may have. Purchasing at a higher prize would be economically foolish on my part (and hard to explain to my personal secretary of finance - aka wife).

That's got nothing to do with "not wanting to support matrixgames/Slitherine", or with the fact that wargames are rather a niche nowadays in the FPS game world, thus have fewer audience and need higher prizes to break even etc etc etc.

PON is a old game, released June 2011 or something. Iain wrote above that

quote:

The game made a huge loss overall and will never break even

By offering it now at the prize of Euro 20.99 D/L or Euro 28.99 boxed will for sure not make it reach the break even point either. The damage to the company involved has already been done - but this is and never was the fault of the customers.

Written all that, I am going for a compromise. I've just purchased PON at a lower prize somewhere else, and will get the DLC's via AGEOD or matrixgames/Slitherine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

I wasn't aware of this game until it was announced here, but it caught my interest. But I am not prepared to spend more money on anything when I can legally purchase the very same product somewhere else for a fraction of the prize offered here, no matter what issues about past/current rights the involved companies may have. Purchasing at a higher prize would be economically foolish on my part (and hard to explain to my personal secretary of finance - aka wife).

That's got nothing to do with "not wanting to support matrixgames/Slitherine", or with the fact that wargames are rather a niche nowadays in the FPS game world, thus have fewer audience and need higher prizes to break even etc etc etc.

PON is a old game, released June 2011 or something. Iain wrote above that

quote:

The game made a huge loss overall and will never break even

By offering it now at the prize of Euro 20.99 D/L or Euro 28.99 boxed will for sure not make it reach the break even point either. The damage to the company involved has already been done - but this is and never was the fault of the customers.

Written all that, I am going for a compromise. I've just purchased PON at a lower prize somewhere else, and will get the DLC's via AGEOD or matrixgames/Slitherine.

I don't think Iain was attempting to blame the customer for anything . I guess the key response to your comments is that all our experience says that, for huge games like PoN, offering the game at extremely low price-points does not radically increase sales, but most definitely does reduce the ability of the developer to make back their time and effort.

Cheers

Pip

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

UK customers get a direct currency conversion to US customers so the price is £17.99. The Ageod store is migration to our payment system so when this happens all prices will match exactly. UK customers are not getting cheated in any way. It is a pure currency conversion.

Of course we are being cheated. Read the original poster.

Ageod are charging UK gamers £15.99 which includes VAT.
Matrix are charging £17.99 then adding VAT £3.60 to make £21.59.

Even if you look at the dollar value of the game we still lose. The game is $24.99 then that should be £16.23 (before tax) at todays conversion cost. If you are converting $24.99 to £17.99 that means you are giving us £1.39 to the $??? I don't follow the Dollar exchange rate but maybe someone can tell me when it was below £1.40?

Iain can answer more fully I am sure, but:

- your own quote contains Iain's point the store is in transition and that once it is complete the prices will be the same.

- currency conversions via payment processors are not as simple as looking at an instant (generally mid-market) exchange rate.

Cheers

Pip

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

I don't think Iain was attempting to blame the customer for anything .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeill

....You are ultimately in control and if you don't want to pay the price you won't but we know from experience what we are doing is best for the team. Nobody ever likes paying more if they can get something for less so I understand why people always argue the prices should be lower and because there is one publisher and lots of customers it can look like we are in the wrong purely because there are more of you than us, but trust us - we know what we're doing.

In the long run this will benefit everyone as if we don't take these steps you won't even have the option to buy or not as the games simple won't exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We know there are other sites who sell the games and they may have them at lower prices but we're removing them one by one.

If you feel you can get a better deal elsewhere then that's fine. All I'm saying is that that revenue will unlikely ever make it to Ageod as we have no connection to those companies Paradox licensed the games to and have to force them to remove them from sale and likely will never get them to report the sales. It's wrong, illegal or whatever you want to call it, but it's the way the world works.

We'll still support you no questions asked.

To support this Ageod needs a stable revenue stream and we're putting the pieces in place to allow for that. The Ageod team have been scraping by for years and we want to give them security and allow them to focus on making the games and not worry about where the next pay check is coming from.

You are ultimately in control and if you don't want to pay the price you won't but we know from experience what we are doing is best for the team. Nobody ever likes paying more if they can get something for less so I understand why people always argue the prices should be lower and because there is one publisher and lots of customers it can look like we are in the wrong purely because there are more of you than us, but trust us - we know what we're doing.

In the long run this will benefit everyone as if we don't take these steps you won't even have the option to buy or not as the games simple won't exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

UK customers get a direct currency conversion to US customers so the price is £17.99.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

UK customers get a direct currency conversion to US customers so the price is £17.99.

No it isn't the price here in the UK is £21.59.

And I am pretty certain that when the some or as in this case probably all of the intended customers are liable to pay VAT (i.e. is a consumer rather than a business) stating or advertising a price that is exclusive of VAT is in contravention of HMRC and ASA requirements (and probably a breach of consumer law here in the UK - you might want to check with Slitherine on this point)but more to my point it is very irritating to be told that a price is less than it is, even if they wanted to a UK customer cannot purchase PoN from Matrix for £17.99.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

Once again you may be able to stop the digital downloads, however you cannot stop legit physical copies being sold in the US due to UCC laws. The first time you try you will get slapped with a lawsuit so quick you will not know what hit you, over here on this side of the pond our the Justice Dept loves going after companies who violate it. Also I can buy the physical version for $23 delivered currently.

quote:

WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?

So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...

I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint

if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...

lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have

Gimme a break guys

Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

quote:

WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?

So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...

I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint

if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...

lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have

Gimme a break guys

Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

I don't know about downloads, but purchasing - even now - a boxed version of the game somewhere else for a lower prize - or any other prize! - is as illegal as purchasing PON used at any second-hand shop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Simply wow! Another "yes" man sent from above. Folks if you buy this game on a disk at at a second hand shop for a buck and believe me this game is worth no more than five bucks it is legal!! Don't let ignorance prevail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think Iain has pretty much covered it, but we discussed this internally at some length today, going over all the feedback here and reviewing our decisions to make sure we were doing the best we could for AGEOD and our customers, so let me review the highlights.

1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.

2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.

3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.

4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.

Regards,

- Erik

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Please spare me. I'm not a "yes" man like you and most on here. And I can see by this you never worked a day in retail. Please don't BS me. I've seen it all. The way matrix/slitheine alienates its so called loyal customers is downright astounding. I often wonder how long a retail chain would last if they adopted matrix/slitheines polices. Not long I imagine. So you are saying a year and half ago I purchased a game illegally? I'm sorry this was not the "honorable " choice to make. And it's more like 22 bucks do the math.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

quote:

WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?

So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...

I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint

if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...

lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have

Gimme a break guys

Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Please spare me. I'm not a "yes" man like you and most on here. And I can see by this you never worked a day in retail. Please don't BS me. I've seen it all. The way matrix/slitheine alienates its so called loyal customers is downright astounding. I often wonder how long a retail chain would last if they adopted matrix/slitheines polices. Not long I imagine. So you are saying a year and half ago I purchased a game illegally? I'm sorry this was not the "honorable " choice to make. And it's more like 22 bucks do the math.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

quote:

WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?

So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...

I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint

if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...

lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have

Gimme a break guys

Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak.

Ha ha , ok I guess I sorta had that attack coming, rereading my post it sounded way more personal than I meant, was supposed be be a little more tongue in cheek, pointing out the ironies of life etc..
As for the Yes man/ retail comments
I certainly am a yes man every time for women, “hey TGM, want some of this ?“ Hell Yes!
As for retail, done it, hoped I earned the right to never go back.
(and for the record I have never owned a single Ageod game, its really the because I like strategic or tactical, the grey area of Operational I have a hard time with..)
PON is different(strategic) and I likely will purchase it. Regardless of ones opinions, it really does look like its worth about 24 bucks… The anger over the pricing of GAMES is just beyond my simplistic beliefs system, ya know, live free or die, good vs evil, capitolism, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We matched their price, we did not exceed it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

And I am pretty certain that when some or as in this case probably all of the intended customers are liable to pay VAT (i.e. is a consumer rather than a business) stating or advertising a price that is exclusive of VAT is in contravention of HMRC and ASA requirements..

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
So what you are saying in general that you are planning to sell more games at a higher price to support this engine than at a lower price at pretty much all other sites? (Chuckling right now). Just trying to understand your logic here. Support further development of what Erik? This game or others??? Do you have plans in works for a dcl of this game? Even if its just "pen to the paper" say so. If not just say we want our investment back on this game. Be honest with your customers and don't dance around the subject like a politician you know better than that. No I'm sorry this is not a 40-50 dollar game. You are demanding prices that apply to 2010 not 2013. I wouldn't pay more than five bucks for this game. It's fun but three years old and getting older. It's like demanding full retail on a 2010 car that has 75'000 miles on it in 2013. I wonder how many customers you would find to buy that car? But wait if you would buy this car at that price you would ensure that the maker of the car would always have a paycheck? I am sorry that the maker of that car sold thousands just like her and a fraction of what you are charging now. No you have not really covered anything really. I can't be the only one who feels this way and by judging the PON thread it is deadly silent. I feel justified.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
Let me ask you this. If you bought a product for 1.99 then a year and half later wanted to buy the same product for 24.99. That's fine fore collectables and coins but not for computer games. Enough said? Or do you want to debate this further ? It looks like there is a committee of "three"here.
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p :)

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Rogo,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
So what you are saying in general that you are planning to sell more games at a higher price to support this engine than at a lower price at pretty much all other sites? (Chuckling right now). Just trying to understand your logic here. Support further development of what Erik? This game or others??? Do you have plans in works for a dcl of this game? Even if its just "pen to the paper" say so. If not just say we want our investment back on this game. Be honest with your customers and don't dance around the subject like a politician you know better than that. No I'm sorry this is not a 40-50 dollar game. You are demanding prices that apply to 2010 not 2013. I wouldn't pay more than five bucks for this game. It's fun but three years old and getting older. It's like demanding full retail on a 2010 car that has 75'000 miles on it in 2013. I wonder how many customers you would find to buy that car? But wait if you would buy this car at that price you would ensure that the maker of the car would always have a paycheck? I am sorry that the maker of that car sold thousands just like her and a fraction of what you are charging now. No you have not really covered anything really. I can't be the only one who feels this way and by judging the PON thread it is deadly silent. I feel justified.

As explained above, our plan is for many, many more games from AGEOD by virtue of keeping them in the business of making games. We're in the process of adding the rest of the AGEOD catalog to our store and as AGEOD is now part of the Slitherine Group we are all funding future development of AGEOD games.

Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me. What has replaced PON? Since when is three years old for a niche wargame "old"? Sure, if other developers were making the equivalent of PON II, PON III and PON IV every year I would agree, but that's not happening. The reason is that these kinds of games serve a niche market which is underserved by the larger publishers because it does not fit their business models.

Using your car analogy, it applies well to a mass-produced car, but the car industry similarly has niches and specialized cars produced for a limited market. Those neither follow the same pricing nor the same depreciation as the mass produced one size fits all kind.

Regards,

- Erik

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
90%? It was released at mid-price and was never $40-50. I suspect a large part of that was it's launch up against Vicky 2 that Paradox had released only a few months earlier so PoN's 'value' in that sense was prejudiced from the start. Niche wargames are no different from anything else in that the only meaningful of measure of financial value is what someone is willing to pay for them.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
Let me ask you this. If you bought a product for 1.99 then a year and half later wanted to buy the same product for 24.99. That's fine fore collectables and coins but not for computer games. Enough said? Or do you want to debate this further ? It looks like there is a committee of "three"here.
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p :)

Hi Rogo,

Please keep the discussion civil and constructive. I'm not sure why you feel the need to make this personal and concoct imaginary conversations instead of reading what's actually been posted.

Do you honestly believe we are lying?

Regards,

- Erik

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
And you wanting to charge me 90% more for a game that's three years old defies all logic. Once again you dance around the subject matter. Business models Erik ? Please don't BS me. I paid 1.99 for this game a year and half ago. Now the exact same game a year and half later you want to charge me 24.99 for. I won't buy it. But at the risk of being banned I won't say any more.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
90%? It was released at mid-price and was never $40-50. I suspect a large part of that was it's launch up against Vicky 2 that Paradox had released only a few months earlier so PoN's 'value' in that sense was prejudiced from the start. Niche wargames are no different from anything else in that the only meaningful of measure of financial value is what someone is willing to pay for them.

I read Rogo's post above as saying that even if it had been $50 three years ago, he wouldn't pay more than $5 for it now.

Regards,

- Erik

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
Just makes me wonder if you did any research on what this game is being sold for now. I'm guessing not. I said this before but a good company improves with negative comments. They grow very little with positive comments. I just want you to improve because I love wargames and I want you to grow as a company.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Rogo,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727
And you wanting to charge me 90% more for a game that's three years old defies all logic. Once again you dance around the subject matter. Business models Erik ? Please don't BS me. I paid 1.99 for this game a year and half ago. Now the exact same game a year and half later you want to charge me 24.99 for. I won't buy it. But at the risk of being banned I won't say any more.

This doesn't make sense to me. I'm not making you pay anything for the game. We've simply set a price and you are free to pay or not pay, that's entirely your choice. If you bought it for $1.99 a year and a half ago, good for you. However, I am saying the game is worth at least $24.99 and that at $1.99 the developer was not getting enough revenue to make more games like this. The question I have for you is, do you honestly believe this is a $1.99 game and that at $1.99 there are enough people interested in it that more games like it will be made?

Regards,

- Erik