RE: Battle of Kharkov! (Full Version)

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kirkgregerson -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/7/2011 7:53:57 PM)

Personally I don't care if HQ buildup is nerfed and the 2:1 can stay. I'm more concerned about the combat engine and the completely bogus results that it can generate. You want to fix WitE and get it resemble historical battle results, which by the way are very well documented in in 42 in let's say 10,000 or so sources (books, papers, etc.).

Main problem is the 'Super Ant' love that WitE seems to maintain. Why would any combat engine for this period and these opposing forces have something like below as a possibility and want to be taken seriously.

German forces: 45,000 men, 400 arty, 25 afvs
vs
Soviet forces: 1000 men, 70 arty, 0 afvs, fort:2

conditions: June 42, clear hex, clear weather

results
axis loses 200 men, 5 arty
soviet loses 200 men, 15 arty
unit retreats (sometime routes w/about same loses)

**conclusion
Are you fricken serious? This Soviet unit would have been smashed and would have either annihilated or surrendered whatever was left of it. This is a common trend in WitE for small units irregarless of what is attacking them to take maximum 30% loses and just retreat or even better for Sov player route farther back with same loses. Sure, if were dealing with a small units with HIGH morale and HIGH exp, maybe then I can see it getting away somewhat without being destroyed. However, this is 1942 and this Sov units was LOW morale and LOW exp.

* I've seen the above results and similar... MANY MANY MANY times now and so have others that have played enough WitE.


IMO, if WitE developers can end this love affair with ANT units in combat results, it would go a long way to correcting a majority of issues with the campaign game. Especially when were dealing with the Soviets common disposition of forted ANT units in DEPTH starting Spring/Summer 42.

If other play-balance issues arising from making the game avoid nonsensical battle results, SO BE IT. Deal with those in a reasonable fashion. Let's have some priorities about this being a historical WW2 combat game and not partially fantasy.













krupp_88mm -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/13/2011 1:43:09 AM)

i dont know about the combat? but i would like to see forts be directionally built, like you can build level 3 forts facing west, at 3 but south west and northwest they are 2 north east and south east they are 1 ect, and maybe you can fortify in different directions, this way you could flank forts and it would take longer to build them into an omnidirectional fort

i dont know how the engine might abstract 45,000 men attacking 1000 men in forts with guns defending them, but under certain conditions they certainly could hold if the attackers cannot bring all thier guns to bear at once, cant flank them or have to approach over unfavorable terrain or dont have adequate support, heck one sniper in the right place can stop a whole division in the right terrain, also many more factors like morale and how serious the attack is and organization exhaustion and fatigue play a part

westerplatte is an example, but thats mainly a testament to the terrain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Westerplatte



kirkgregerson -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/16/2011 5:36:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

i dont know about the combat? but i would like to see forts be directionally built, like you can build level 3 forts facing west, at 3 but south west and northwest they are 2 north east and south east they are 1 ect, and maybe you can fortify in different directions, this way you could flank forts and it would take longer to build them into an omnidirectional fort

i dont know how the engine might abstract 45,000 men attacking 1000 men in forts with guns defending them, but under certain conditions they certainly could hold if the attackers cannot bring all thier guns to bear at once, cant flank them or have to approach over unfavorable terrain or dont have adequate support, heck one sniper in the right place can stop a whole division in the right terrain, also many more factors like morale and how serious the attack is and organization exhaustion and fatigue play a part

westerplatte is an example, but thats mainly a testament to the terrain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Westerplatte



Well you haven't read enough about the Soviet army in early-mid 42 if you think brigade size unit in some sort of fort could hold off 2+ divisions of veteran German soldiers. That is my whole point. The combat engine in 1942 gives way too much credit to these ANT (low morale and exp too) units in a fort. They would have either gotten wiped out or just surrendered. A few books on the east front and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I can suggest some if you like.

Case and point Sevastopol, which I think had more defenders than attackers (counting all that were shuffled in and out plus defenders of Odessa joined too). Also, look at Eben Emal, one of the toughest forts at that time in history. It was taken done by a handful of elite German troops. The Soviets did learn how to fight and got some confidence as the war went on. Also, the Germans were just ground down and poorly lead at the very top level too. So many disasters got the Germans were to come in late 42 and onward.

In fact the norm in 42 was mostly smaller better trained, better exp, better leader German formations getting victories over larger Soviet forces. Quite the opposite logic of the results the WitE combat engine is spewing out when 40k Germans take on 5k Soviets.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/22/2011 3:22:17 PM)

76 is back from vacation so I finished a turn after a long lull. Not much to report I attacked along the line where I could get good results and achieved 3-1 casualties in my favor. In the air war he pulled back a ton or air units but still lost over 300 airframes to my 20 or so in combat over the battles on the ground.

All the Panzers are off the line and gaining strength.

I will post a more detailed sitrep when I get the turn back.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:12:43 PM)

Aug 22 1942 OOB -

My army is in excellent shape yet last turn 76 launched 5 attacks but I only held one hex because of the 1-1 to 2-1 rule. The more I think about that rule in 1942 the more it frustrates me. In all cases in these battles I suffered the same if not more in casualties and lost the hex in cases where he had even odds. This rule needs to be changed starting in 1942. At its core it just does not make sense that defending German troops suffer equal or more casualties in battles where the odds are essentially equal.

Here is a quick list of the turns battles. I attacked across the line in many areas where he was not in forts with weak units. Attacks were made with tremendous firepower in many cases using Panzer corps in deliberate attacks. In many areas his air force had been pulled back and was out of range The results were almost always retreats with a few routs thrown in. Casualty rates were roughly 3-1 in my favor. In areas where his air force flew he ran up some serious losses once again approaching 500 air frames killed for the turn.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/460B0E3FFD0E4DDA976795521D8646C3.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:16:06 PM)

Aug 22 42 OOB start - Army is in pretty good shape as I pointed out earlier. His army is getting better quality and hovering around the 7 mill mark.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/1688479E5F5744F5943DCEE312A2ED77.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:17:56 PM)

Air losses for turn - I think my airforce is just better then his experience wise. In some battles he is getting wrecked with massive losses. One battle he did lose a lot of planes to just flak as I had no fighters.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/6D1B7090DF73472DAED667F08089AA53.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:20:32 PM)

South front final - I attacked across the line here and pushed him back out of no mans land.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/1DA7E7DCBB584D0589D5CD87915F841F.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:22:31 PM)

In the Crimea he attacked and I think made a beach landing in my rear. All my Panzers are rested and waiting on rails to react to whatever came up and a Panzer corps was dispatched to handle the situation.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/D598C55C446E401B8CFA6B0153F56489.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:23:23 PM)

And after the commitment a nice little pocket was made.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/2C20781D75D244A381DCF3A281C85D80.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:27:08 PM)

In the 16th army sector another Panzer corp made its presence felt in what appears to be an area he is building up in. I really dont forsee him getting far in the area and there is a strong defensive position to fall back to if things get out of hand.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/89995C3E91C844BDBE8E674C59B97E5E.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 5:43:04 PM)

A few items to mention:

1) All of the Panzers are off the line but still somewhat active. I am rotating Panzer armies between making local attacks and sitting on rails in refit mode. Almost every section of the front can have 1-2 full strength Panzer corps react to a situation.

2) 1/4 of the infantry divisions are on refit at any given time and there are some 12 infantry divisions in reserve and digging trench lines. Artillery toe is set at 50% across all infantry divisions to try and reduce losses from retreats. Average German infantry CV is between 7-8 with some units on the high end with 11 or 12.

3) His partisan activity has dropped way down since the patches and has been rather ineffective.

4) Fall back lines are being dug in various sections of the front.

I really enjoy the challenge of the Axis in defending. My main concern is the mechanics being such that even having a rather strong Axis army I will be hard pressed to be successful because of various issues that I cannot impact through quality game play.

We will see!



Ketza -> Summer 1942 (6/26/2011 5:52:33 PM)

Name changer!



Harrybanana -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 7:09:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

My army is in excellent shape yet last turn 76 launched 5 attacks but I only held one hex because of the 1-1 to 2-1 rule. The more I think about that rule in 1942 the more it frustrates me. In all cases in these battles I suffered the same if not more in casualties and lost the hex in cases where he had even odds. This rule needs to be changed starting in 1942. At its core it just does not make sense that defending German troops suffer equal or more casualties in battles where the odds are essentially equal.




Ketza, out of curosity, of the 5 Russian attacks that succeeded, in how many did he have 1:1 or greater final odds but less than 2:1? In other words how many of the 5 would have failed if he had needed the same 2:1 odds as the German? If I am reading your post correctly I think you are saying all of them, but I'm not sure.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 7:14:40 PM)

I cant recall exactly but my cursory look at a few of them just confirmed what I had been seeing in all of his attacks in 1942. I will look more closely next turn and post some screenies.



Peltonx -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 7:42:20 PM)

Yes I am finding that tanks are usless in the front lines come 42. Great for counter attacks and breakthoughs, but thats it. The infantry rule the battle field.
If you are just attacking to take hexes its a waste of resourcses you will need later. Only attack if you can pocket Russians, this will put the losses in your favor. Other wise it be 1 dead german for every 1.75 dead Russians which is not good enough.

Let him grind away on your dug in infantry.

not sure if I asked , but what did you manage to bag for production units?

Pelton



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/26/2011 7:59:49 PM)

The problem with going for pockets as the Axis in 1942 currently (from my experience against 76mm) is the fact that it is very easy for the Soviets to counterattack your pocket walls in most cases as your Panzers are not in forts. With a few stacks of Soviet infantry divisions backed by a few hundred planes easily getting the 1-1 shift your Panzers will retreat and lose a lot of combat power when they do. I would rather cause casualties with my Panzer forces attacking then lose them in retreats. For the long haul to 1945 hanging anyone out to dry not in a fort is non productive.

I have found the best rate of return on casualties is being on the defensive in forts with infantry and attacking the Soviets in the open with Panzers whenever possible. This is not going to lead to massive pockets but for my game currently those days are gone anyway.

Granted if I see an opportunity I will take it but I do not see 76mm making those kind of mistakes. Most of my current attacks are to attack his stuff not in forts and cause him air casualties. Both strats are working pretty well.

As far as HI and Arm I have killed that is kinda fuzzy. I am pretty sure I killed everything in Leningrad, Kharkov and Stalino with a few smaller towns tossed in. Maybe 10 or 15% of his total? Not sure.



Peltonx -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/27/2011 12:38:25 AM)

Your in the same boat I am in vs Hoooper. I thk we both did not do enough production damage or just enough, only one way for us to find out. I thk vs Arstavidous I did more then enough so I thk summer of 42 be ok.

I need this game vs Hoooper to go into 44 atleast so I know what needs to be done when to get atleast a draw. I am closly watching this AAR also.

I thk your doing better with air war which I need to do better at.

I set my AA to 75% for now so that should help.

Hmm putting air bases in citys with AA might help or with ground units with AA. I try that see what happens.

Pelton



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/27/2011 12:42:38 AM)

My cap (air intercept) is set at 160% atm. I am thinking of raising it higher actually.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 8:38:45 AM)

No updates for a while?



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:40:31 PM)

Turn 64 OOB

Keeping his army around 7 million while mine is pretty consistent with strength and growing a little.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/3E56A49213B142FF918B142DD67B6325.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:46:11 PM)

Turn 64 Axis offensive losses. Each turn I am mounting attacks where it looks like I will get victories. I have switched it up a little bit and I am hitting his higher CV areas as I have noticed my losses are pretty consistent no matter what I attack. This turn I once again hit the 3-1 casualty rate in my favor.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/B1DB8FD1DD2B4FA5898CACF94FCC8193.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:48:45 PM)

Turn 64 air losses. Another big week for the Luftwaffe. Around 50% of his losses are IL2s and Laggs.


[image]local://upfiles/23687/844EDF79832A4ED59E4977B31E11525A.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:52:46 PM)

Here is one of my fighter squadrons showing the immense number of aircraft kills it has.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/81DF4691DA0E4F56B6413A36FB9EB264.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:55:12 PM)

And these guys with 99 exp!



[image]local://upfiles/23687/D8D99595BAD849FAAE9C67A52353B83E.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 9:58:52 PM)

Turn 64 production. I dont look at these screens very often. I was surprised at all the airframes I have sitting in warehouses.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/AC80EC099CC24A6BB47DECB60FF9EDB2.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 10:05:08 PM)

This turns fighting.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/10AC64C0E0EE4D52823B20626900D7C4.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 10:10:40 PM)

64 North - He has pushed here a bit in the 16th army sector but local reserves and the 48th Panzer corp have pretty much shut him down with counterattacks. There are a few level 3 fort lines to fall back on if things get hairy. 9th army is in good shape as well in very strong forts many of which are level 4.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/AE774642D5984637963717BCB5E1832B.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 10:15:22 PM)

Turn 64 AGC - Fairly quiet sector/ Level 4 forts and more fort lines being constructed in the rear. wnd Panzer army s very strong and has been rotating a few Panzer corps and using local attacks where the opportunity arises.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/CA9EC1EB95AE45CCBD60E91ACF058ECA.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (7/2/2011 10:17:45 PM)

Most Panzer CVs are in the 12-14 range but 7th and a few others are in very good shape:



[image]local://upfiles/23687/2CD0906E684A4234ABF554AC2027CA89.jpg[/image]



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