RE: Battle of Kharkov! (Full Version)

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Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:23:41 AM)

He launched attacks along other parts of the front and beat up some Hungarians so they were beefed up with German divisons. 2nd panzer army was reinforced by a Panzer corp from the Crimea and it is the strongest of all the Pz armies at 12 arm/motor divisions. A few more forts were knocked down in front of Moscow and then the turn was sent off.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:25:13 AM)

Upon getting the turn back 76mm had not tried to reopen the pockets but he had attacked in various places of the front but first I will outline the pocket battle. Here is the picture after the pocket was cleared by 17th and 8th Italian armies with the Hungarian mobile corp thrown in. No Panzers were used and as you can see there are some fairly strong stacks ready to roll that are gassed up. There are also several strong infantry corps ready.



[image]local://upfiles/23687/B7FDF66264EC4984991E75B0FA98C486.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:30:28 AM)

Pocket battle ground losses. This is what I am striving for. I need several battles like this over the summer to keep him under 7 million men which is my goal. Its really just a number I pulled out of my $#@ but its a nice round one...

This pocket yielded 13 units.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/8C7C6D6F2A70435E868FF338A7EF2753.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:33:52 AM)

The air war is a major project of mine each turn. Here again I have been trying to keep his airforce from growing into a monster. I know it will eventually but for now he only outnumbers me 3-1 or so and I have the edge experience wise so now is the time to try and whittle him down. Part of that strategy is turning Interception way up and turning off ground support unless its absolutely needed in attacks that matter.

This is a good snapshot of the strategy working. His ground support is taking a beating during the course of the pocket reductions.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/5A0FE6F6F4554F55AF3D45F655C2A0EC.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:42:45 AM)

After studying the situation I determined I could pocket some 20 units and probably clear most of the Don bend as well as overrun a lot of airfields.

Infantry blasted a hole and 3rd Pz drove northeast and took Varoshilovgrad. 1st Panzer drove east just North of Rostov and cleared the North side of the Don except Rostov itself as it was defended well. 4th panzer then hooked around where 3rd pz blasted a hole and linked up with 1st Panzer. While reconing the Don river I found 76s strongest units yet of the north side of the river so divisions were positioned and hexes converted to slow him down in case he decided to come across the river. An SS division also converted a lot of hexes in the bend and cut a rail bridge over the Donets to the east towards Stalingrad.

The resulting pocket is 21 or so units including some decent divisons and a Calvary corps.

This turn puts Rostov and Stalingrad into play. Stalingrad has a T-34 factory that he has not moved as of yet.

There is also the potential for a large pocket north of Gorlovka. In the past he has evacuated a salient like that so we will see what he does.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/FD186A3AA91B433A98EB1F8EEAEEC703.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:46:53 AM)

In the center the buildup continues but 3rd Pz is of course delayed.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/C5632CCA31E4449AABD4394B1852F940.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:49:24 AM)

Kharkov front has seen some action as he has done some attacking. I have some very strong infantry armies here however and when they counter his weakened attackers they tend to lay down a hurting. Between his high casualties attacking and my counters I come out ahead 2 or 3 to one on casualties.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/5C1AE3F63C1F42149C98C55B7574A80E.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:51:27 AM)

He launched a mini offensive in the north but recon shows he does not have a lot of steam behind it so local reserves have been sent to deal with it.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/BE7D7B00DA7D43BD8170AD851B599250.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:53:13 AM)

Total casualties for the turn. I just need a few turns like this over the summer to maintain the current ratios of strength. I did lose more tanks then he did but I conducted a lot of Hasty Panzer attacks using full Pz corps which seems to give me the best return on my usage of Gas and Ammo. I think the actual number of casualties is a little higher then what is shown here.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/0533CB5EA615493B88D0ACA04E3F578F.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 3:58:28 AM)

Air losses - Very good turn here. He lost a lot of Il-2s from airfield overruns. As an Axis player its best to wait as long as possible to overrun an airfield. The more planes that fly from the base the more that get damaged. Then just before you overrun it bomb it once or twice using the Hungarians or Rumanians first with fighter sweeps if they are in range to test the fighter defences.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/B748E1B901624316B10BED03EE9DAC7F.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 4:10:56 AM)

Its clear to me at this point I did pretty well over the Blizzard. Every clear and snow turn since it ended I have been attacking and making progress but my army is getting stronger. This turn was the first turn I surpassed my old high water mark taking bacl all of what I gave up in the south and capturing a new city. In the south I finally managed to break through his forts and now it looks like there is the potential for a war of manuever as there is finally clear terrain in front of me with no Soviets digging in a carpet.

Except for some divisions in 9th, 16th and 4th army most of my infantry is 8-11 CV. I am interested to see if this gets better with the new patch refit rules.

My Panzers are in pretty good shape considering what was accomplished in May and June. 2nd Panzer is in very good condition with most divisions at 14CV for armor and 10CV for motorized and none of it is on refit.

I am still planning on a Moscow offensive. I am not sure if my shuffling back and forth is causing him concern one way or another. All I know is he has some good troops in the south still so there may be some real opportunities for dealing damage in that sector.



Klydon -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 4:30:33 AM)

I think along with casualties, you have to kill lots of units in the 1942 campaign. Make him build new units, not necessarily combine what he has into corps. 



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/25/2011 4:37:32 AM)

One thing I have been thinking about is that fact that he has so many units built is it harder to get them all up to speed having so many?

I was thinking even if I did not get a lot of pockets it may be worthwhile just beating on as many units as possible to dilute his strength.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/28/2011 8:11:14 PM)

76mm went on the offensive in the south and committed his heavy hitters that were lurking over the river. He relieved the pocket and created one of his own which was easily relieved in return. Due to the large Soviet pocket 4th and 1st PZ armies were low on fuel so it was decided to go ahead and crush the pocket instead of risk being in a bad spot next turn. Everything was routed out and the lines prepared for his shock armies.

A few more infantry corps were railed in. Other parts of the front were mainly local attacks and consolidating lines.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/5EB08F25BFDA4BC3BE63ECAEB22B6DAE.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/28/2011 8:13:22 PM)

Losses were very heavy in tanks from his attacks his part of the turn as I had several retreats. Losses for my turn were again in my favor. I dont know the exact number but losses both sides were heavy in the south overall in the end probably coming out 50/50 from his attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/FA6B7338B87541E7AC28E735608EB76C.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/28/2011 8:14:43 PM)

Air losses 58. Take away the transports losses (first time I used them in a long time) losses are still 8-1 or so in my favor.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/2D68DFA3DD35403A9844D6E299361166.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/28/2011 8:15:25 PM)

More commentary later I have a BBQ to go to!



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:29:49 AM)

After much debate with myself as well as my long time wargaming buddy it was decided to pullback in the south behind the Mius river line. What started off as a slight distraction blossomed into opportunity but it became obvious after turn 58 that it would be near impossible to replicate the historical German offensive in 1942.

I have done well against 76mm in 41 and early 42. I have destroyed a substantial amount of his industry including the tank factories in Leningrad and Kharkov. He has moved just about everything in the Western Soviet Union except some stuff in Moscow and Stalingrad.

I have destroyed 5.7 million Soviet troops, 22,600 tanks and over 31,000 airframes.

It has been one of the better results when compared to most AARs but quite frankly its just not enough damage done to continue a major offensive.

I suppose as in real life Manstein was right concerning the War in Russia a strategic defence is the most prudent option. Looking at the numbers from his counterattacks it makes much more sense to wait for him to attack then to go at him because the casualty ratios favor him when the Panzers are stuck in the open without forts.

Relative to that within the game I think the 1-1 switching to 2-1 mechanic has got to go in 1942. A 20 CV stack of Panzers in 1942 is at a distinct disadvantage going up against the same 20 CV stack of Soviet tank and rifle corps.

So for the long haul it looks like I will be following the path of Idahonewyorker and switching to the Manstein doctrine except for local offensives and pocket opportunities. There really isnt any valuable real estate to go after at this juncture that impacts his industrial base except a few factoris in Moscow and Stalingard that are left anyway so what really is the point.

So here is the south part of the front after the pull back. 2 Panzer armies came out of the line and some rather nasty stacks of infantry were created. I think he will just fill up the void with crap brigades and divisions and pull out his heavy hitters that made themselves known. I suppose I knew all along they were lurking out there but was unaware they would be so effective against stacks of Panzers. The retreat results were quite devestating. Most other parts of the line where he has been attacking where I have 3 and 4 level forts have withstood his attacks very well and given him some nasty casualties. I think I would rather deal with those results [:D]

That having been said I like my long term prospects. hopefully the damage I have done will be the difference in the race to Berlin.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/EB76FC7C1193404383B8A10EC15AC765.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:33:19 AM)

Turn 59 losses. Local attacks that brought about a 4-1 or so ratio of losses. Several of his tank brigades with hammered with 10-1 or better odds and one brigade was shattered.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/631EE77E52B7449FB9B690F9EB73849E.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:36:42 AM)

59 Air losses - Luftwaffe still dealing a hurting here. His airforce has really taken a beating during the spring and summer.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/8760BE33FA8345988BD5C9AE5F1C40DD.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:37:36 AM)

Probably prudent at this point. I think the game offers little incentive for the Germans to launch a good sized offensive in the 1942 traditional sense. There simply is not that tangible factor present in this game to reward behavior like that.

I do wonder about taking a crack at those fort markers around Rostov tho. If you can pop them, they auto surrender and losses are losses on the Russian side.

To me, if the Germans stand on the strategic defensive, they must look for opportunities to ambush Russians in the open every chance they get with strong local counter attacks against unfortified Russians. Granted this will perhaps cause the Germans some losses, but you never know what may develop from such a battle. One think you have to be careful of and that is he will start putting together the forces for set piece battles (artillery and infantry corps). While expensive, no German infantry stack is going to hold against an assault of 6-9 infantry corps backed by artillery.



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:40:01 AM)

OOB turn 59 - Hopefully I can continue to attrition him at a 3 or 4 to one rate and keep his army from growing too large before his industry starts coming back online. Next few turns should see my armor strength go back over 3k. I also sent some luftwaffe to the reserve to recover somewhat from 8 weeks of high sorties.

[image]local://upfiles/23687/E72AF0CEF51945898C3830D2A6A44081.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/30/2011 4:50:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Probably prudent at this point. I think the game offers little incentive for the Germans to launch a good sized offensive in the 1942 traditional sense. There simply is not that tangible factor present in this game to reward behavior like that.

I do wonder about taking a crack at those fort markers around Rostov tho. If you can pop them, they auto surrender and losses are losses on the Russian side.

To me, if the Germans stand on the strategic defensive, they must look for opportunities to ambush Russians in the open every chance they get with strong local counter attacks against unfortified Russians. Granted this will perhaps cause the Germans some losses, but you never know what may develop from such a battle. One think you have to be careful of and that is he will start putting together the forces for set piece battles (artillery and infantry corps). While expensive, no German infantry stack is going to hold against an assault of 6-9 infantry corps backed by artillery.



I thought about it but there was some nasty high CV divisons mixed in with those forts and a deliberate attack would have messed up the withdrawal just enough to leave some guys out of position.

I will always be on the lookout for attacking its just my nature. During the spring and early summer I probably inflicted 1 million casualties on him and destroyed more then 100 units. But if I am going to lose 300-400 Panzers a turn from 1-1 attacks from his better corp level units its better to sit and wait in level 3 or 4 forts. As you point out theres no compelling reason to move forward.

As much as I would like a free wheeling mobile game the way WITE is set up thats just not a winning strategy for Germany in 1942 even when you did reasonably well in 1941.

Now if you havent killed 4 million Soviets before the blizzard or force them to move factories or be lucky to capture a few the Axis player is in for a hard time in 42. That is painfully obvious to me at this point.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/31/2011 12:25:08 PM)

Interesting turning point! I understand your reasoning, and I think it is the prudent, though perhaps a bit dull course of action.

P.S. Could you write the date as well as the turn number? It is a bit hard to figure out what time of year it is just from the turn number.

P.P.S. I really like the way you guys are writing parallell AARs. It is very interesting to follow the impressions and decisions of both sides. Good AARs both!



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (5/31/2011 5:31:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Interesting turning point! I understand your reasoning, and I think it is the prudent, though perhaps a bit dull course of action.

P.S. Could you write the date as well as the turn number? It is a bit hard to figure out what time of year it is just from the turn number.

P.P.S. I really like the way you guys are writing parallell AARs. It is very interesting to follow the impressions and decisions of both sides. Good AARs both!


Well I certainly wanted to have an exciting summer campaign and that was the plan. By reading other AARs and comparing results to mine I thought I may have a chance but reality set in and the number crunching gamer side of me saw the more prudent course of action.

I do however enjoy defending and in other games I have played though the years I must say I am pretty good at it. My Soviet games have all pretty much shut down the Axis before mud so hopefully I can bring some of that experience to impact this game.

My main concern is the Soviet even odds attacks that jump up to 2-1 odds and enable a lot more Axis retreats and excess casualties. This leads to a lot more Soviet attacks and momentum that should be unsustainable as it was historically. Although I agree to an extent they need the bump in the summer/fall of 41 I am not convinced it is needed in the Blizzard and beyond. In one AAR after another the Soviets steamroll along much earlier then seems historical.

I guess we will see what happens!



abulbulian -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/3/2011 9:02:11 PM)

How are things going here? Been a few days without some action?

[:(]



Ketza -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/4/2011 1:35:58 AM)

I have a turn from 76mm just very busy this week and I have a lot of "admin" to do in our game shuffling around support units and what not.

Update sometime this weekend.



Peltonx -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/7/2011 2:54:41 AM)

Hmm another unhistorical rule, that helps the Russians surpise surpise [>:]

Its 1942 and WW 1 breaks out, because 1 to 1 odds is really 2 to 1 odds. The Reds needed 4 to 5 times the odds to even have a chance at doing anything in 1942.

I can see it in 1943, but before that the Russian army was a joke attacking.

Pelton



Mynok -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/7/2011 5:09:43 AM)


There are lots of opportunities for the 'backhand blow' for the Germans. Just avoid those rifle corps. They are death. The bad news is he gets more and more of them so long as you put little pressure on him.




Speedysteve -> RE: Battle of Kharkov! (6/7/2011 7:56:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Hmm another unhistorical rule, that helps the Russians surpise surpise [>:]

Its 1942 and WW 1 breaks out, because 1 to 1 odds is really 2 to 1 odds. The Reds needed 4 to 5 times the odds to even have a chance at doing anything in 1942.

I can see it in 1943, but before that the Russian army was a joke attacking.

Pelton


You do know what happened historically and that the SU did conduct successful attacks in 42 and even 41?

We wouldn't want to nerf these rules now and say........remove the HQ Buildup as it is now would we? [;)]



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