RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports



Message

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 11:36:41 PM)

I was of course kidding but will do all my best to stop him, be sure of this [sm=00000055.gif]

Yes, I am very lucky he made that mistake and sent his AGN Panzers to that bottleneck, trap. But hadn't he moved them, you would see MANY of my hordes (the ones you see right now to stop him up there + some more, I very much suspect) in front of them. To me this is an axiom: look for the most dangerous units (aka the main threat) and concentrate your forces to more or less contain them. Success is of course not guaranteed but you have to try it. If you don't then right, what could stop the "German supermen"... Obviously nothing... [:D]

So you see weak airborne brigades because I don't fear his infantry at all [:)] One little push here, another there and that's all. Now if he brings tanks that's another story. I will simply apply my axiom.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 10:07:56 PM)

Turn 8

7 august 1941


Well, no big changes on this turn [:)] But what happened up north -in Leningrad area- explains why I am still sort of optimist (at least here) [8D]


[image]local://upfiles/11562/BFB09021370C48FA92F72E3D45429154.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 10:21:07 PM)

Oops, wrong screenshot, sorry [:D] So, this is why I am rather happy in the north. Definitely I love these panzers near the Narva River! [:)] Hmm, I think there were 4 panzer units, so he is diverting one of them, apparently.


[image]local://upfiles/11562/A72FD69AE00C46508A054CC482ED7090.jpg[/image]



Senno -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 10:39:50 PM)

2nd ACR doen't mind if I discuss screenshots. Just no discussion of strategic intent.

Thus:

Right hook?[;)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 10:48:27 PM)

I am rather tired today so won't do my turn [:)]

Right hook? I am not good at guessing things and don't have a crystal ball but I suspect that's very improbable. I mean... the only forces which might do that are his panzers near Velikie Luki (AGC northern panzer army that is)... I haven't pasted a screenshot of that area... but he's advanced a fex hexes there... and gaps are appearing... so that means not enough infantry. I think a right hook under the current circunstances is simply impossible. But still, I am not good at guessing things [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 11:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

TD, no intent whatsoever to take anything away from you, you've done great, and certainly no intent to imply you've selected "easy" opponents...its just that in my limited experience, with a really aggressive player, concentrating your troops near his is an invitation for him to encircle them, and I don't think either of your opponents have done much of that...

I'm not saying Sovs should engage in wholesale retreat, but you gotta be careful.


This is from Senno's AAR and I obviously do NOT want to hijack HIS AAR to discuss my own strategy [:)] Not even sure if 76mm's is going to read this. Just in case.

I think I am being VERY prudent (in fact NO big pockets after the frontier district massacres [;)]). Being next to the most dangerous enemy units (panzers) does not automatically mean a certain destruction... I will use this analogy, which I already used on a PM I sent to Senno a few days ago: it's like the gazelles... A good strategy they use is running around the lion itself! If they do that it's because it apparently works.

So, believe it or not, I know pretty well what I am doing when I am concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous enemy units. On my first game it was MUCH more complicated. I still didn't know when and where I was SAFE [8D] But now I am starting to know this [:)] It's a subtle but very important thing if I want to stop the Germans (in my NOOBISH opinion, of course). So far it is working. In fact on this turn I will be retreating a portion of my Western and Bryansk Fronts. NOT around Vitebsk and Smolensk though.

According to Alfonso, Moscow might be safe right now. But I need to be sure. So I am pretty certain that IF I hold Smolensk (obviously not surrounded) until turn 13 included, Moscow is definitely safe... So this is going to be my vital mission in the center... And the good thing is that I think it can be done, under the current circunstances that is.



Senno -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/16/2011 11:57:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I am rather tired today so won't do my turn [:)]

Right hook? I am not good at guessing things and don't have a crystal ball but I suspect that's very improbable. I mean... the only forces which might do that are his panzers near Velikie Luki (AGC northern panzer army that is)... I haven't pasted a screenshot of that area... but he's advanced a fex hexes there... and gaps are appearing... so that means not enough infantry. I think a right hook under the current circunstances is simply impossible. But still, I am not good at guessing things [:)]


thought I'd raise the issue as you have no infantry south of Lake Ilmen down the Pola in the screenshot.

Not sure of your reserves situation of course.[;)]

Looking forward to the next turn.[:)]





TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 1:14:07 AM)

No strategic reserves at all [:(] But on the next 3 weeks I will be receiving like 20 divisions I think. Totally useless? That's better than nothing. And they can create ZOCs after all and that per se slows the enemy down.

Anyway, I think I could divert perhaps 10 or 15 divisions from the Fronts north of the Pripyat Marshes if I really needed them... Still, I don't want to do that unless I REALLY need them.



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 6:29:00 AM)

TD, thanks for moving this discussion to your thread, I am indeed following it! I find the topic of aggressiveness by the Sov player rather interesting...

I have to say that my opinions are based on all of one PBEM game and reading a few AARs, and thus might be wildly incorrect. But I don't think that you've faced an opponent that has reduced encirclements to an art form, as some of the German players have. As I've said, I think you're doing great, but I will be interested to see if your style of play holds up against various styles of German opponent.

And frankly, in general I don't think that counterattack threats by the Sov player are a real deterrent to German players, because the threat is just not serious enough. I would be interested to hear what other players think.



Manny111 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 7:17:44 AM)

Pardon me for hijacking.

I'd really like to see a game between TD's current opponent and 76mm as an AAR now. Sounds like a challenge to me.[;)]



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 8:10:05 AM)

Not a challenge at all.

I'm not going to post much in this thread, because I am afraid to comment on TD's or 2ACR's tactics and strategies because I'm reading both AARs and don't want to give any spoilers to either side. That said, I'm following this AAR with great interest, good luck TD!




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 4:00:18 PM)

76mm, I don't think 2ndACR needs me to defend him but here I go: his AGS massive encirclement was superb, in my opinion. He totally destroyed my Southwestern Front, so fair play [:)]

Yes, I think the "agressive" play is indeed interesting. In fact it is perhaps the key (I might be wrong though) when you're the Soviet and are playing the first 17 turns. Anyway, we should make the difference between "agressive" and "kamikaze", because they are not the same thing.

The thing is, if you don't mass your forces around the most dangerous units (aka panzers), what is going to stop them from maneuvering (lots of MPs) and therefore surrounding your forces? A constant retreat, in my opinion. And that automatically means the German player will then be totally free to grab Moscow, Leningrad or whatever he wants [8D]

In fact I am not really counter-attacking. It's more about placing my forces in places which I consider vital to stop my opponent. Pure counter-attacks (aka attack enemy stacks), so far I only did 2, I think.

Another German player in this same situation would slaughter me? That I don't know. And you are possibly right, by the way [:)]

All I can say is that so far concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous units is working for me... as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces.

Sabre, much more experienced than me, says various lines are needed. So that's maybe the answer [8D]

Still, you cannot allow the panzers to do what they want. You MUST try to contain them: one turn here another turn there. If you don't, I am pretty certain you are doomed.



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 4:21:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
The thing is, if you don't mass your forces around the most dangerous units (aka panzers), what is going to stop them from maneuvering (lots of MPs) and therefore surrounding your forces? A constant retreat, in my opinion. And that automatically means the German player will then be totally free to grab Moscow, Leningrad or whatever he wants [8D]

In fact I am not really counter-attacking. It's more about placing my forces in places which I consider vital to stop my opponent. Pure counter-attacks (aka attack enemy stacks), so far I only did 2, I think.


I think we're really saying the same thing then...I don't think that the Sovs should constantly retreat, but sort of stay "in the face" of the German player, which I think is what you're saying as well (the "counterattack" wording kind of confused me). That said, I can't say that this strategy has worked very well for me in my single PBEM, so I will be re-evaluating. Hence my interest in your AAR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
All I can say is that so far concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous units is working for me... as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces.

Sabre, much more experienced than me, says various lines are needed. So that's maybe the answer [8D]


Heh, this is the hard part for me: "...as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces." I just think that if you are close enough to slow down the enemy, you are close enough to be surrounded. I think multiple lines are the way to go, but it often impossible to put together until fairly late in the season. And I by no means have anything bad to say against 2ACR, but it seems (at least from the single AAR I'm reading by him) like his style of play is different from some others, more of a "punch a hole and drive deep" style rather than "focus every move on bagging more Sov units" style. That is what I meant when I said I didnt think he was as aggresive as others... And it is very possible that this observation is simply incorrect.
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Still, you cannot allow the panzers to do what they want. You MUST try to contain them: one turn here another turn there. If you don't, I am pretty certain you are doomed.


Could not agree more, I just have a very poor understanding thus far of how to achieve it. For instance, I've read in several threads that you should also keep at least one Sov unit in contact with each Panzer div. I do this, but don't fully understand what good it does; while it obviously forces them (or more likely, some accompanying unit) to attack before they can move, if you placed your units one hex away, they would have to pay to enter your ZOC before attacking, which would seem better. I guess having a unit touching the panzers causes them greater fatigue and attrition, but is that the main reason?



Sabre21 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 4:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

TD, thanks for moving this discussion to your thread, I am indeed following it! I find the topic of aggressiveness by the Sov player rather interesting...

I have to say that my opinions are based on all of one PBEM game and reading a few AARs, and thus might be wildly incorrect. But I don't think that you've faced an opponent that has reduced encirclements to an art form, as some of the German players have. As I've said, I think you're doing great, but I will be interested to see if your style of play holds up against various styles of German opponent.

And frankly, in general I don't think that counterattack threats by the Sov player are a real deterrent to German players, because the threat is just not serious enough. I would be interested to hear what other players think.


Chances are the German players that think this haven't faced a Soviet player capable of doing it effecively yet. It takes time to really learn what you can do with the Soviets in 41. The various really good Soviet players will vary somewhat in their tactics, but they all have one thing in common, aggressiveness.

Whether it's replacing bad commanders and mounting an army level assault with the best units available onto select weak Axis units, or using a series of wave attacks to push back or rout weakened German units, or using infiltration with mobile units to interdict and/or cut supply, or using feints to draw off enemy forces, or using massed air attacks, or a combination of all the above and then some, the Soviets are capable of causing the Germans a lot of grief prior to the blizzard turns.



CharonJr -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 5:46:11 PM)

And those counterattacks will provide guards units, IIRC even in the fairly short RtL PBEM I got 4 guards units in the end.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 10:47:56 PM)

Ok, well... some people have sort of scared me [:)] Encircled's opinion that maybe I should withdraw my front in the center (HQ buildup thing) [X(] and Senno's right hook!

Soooo, up north what do we have? On one hand I have the useless panzers in the bottleneck. BUT, I am pretty certain that my opponent has already realized they don't do anything good there... so he will possibly relocate them and put them to good use elsewhere. Still, I want him to think this maneuver is tying many of my hordes, so I don't want to completely divert many of my forces there. So on this turn I am only "discretely" sending two monster tank divisions to the vicinity of Pskov [8D]

I have also followed Mynok's advice and now all the important hexes around Leningrad will be building forts (Fortified regions and other units) [&o]

I'm also isolating his only Panzer division near Pskov. It should be ok: the 7th cavalry will rescue them, no doubt. In fact I don't want to attract a lot of enemy units to this place, if you know what I mean [sm=00000622.gif]

EDIT: oops, the screenshot is wrong: you should read ROKOSSOVSKI (28 Army boss) instead of Konev (Northwest Front boss)

[image]local://upfiles/11562/6FD6304BF4454F29AE26F194BB76D738.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 10:59:32 PM)

The Finnish No Attack Line east of Lake Ladoga [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/77E915E5B2084496ACCD58E500042997.jpg[/image]



Senno -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 11:25:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Ok, well... some people have sort of scared me [:)] Encircled's opinion that maybe I should withdraw my front in the center (HQ buildup thing) [X(] and Senno's right hook!



I can't take credit for the right hook. I just wanted to raise the issue after looking at your screenshot, TD.[:)]

Other finer minds have developed it.[:)]

It looks like another fine job you've done in gumming up the works for another few turns.

The highwire act continues. But you seem a member of the Flying Walenda's.[:)]

Good game!




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/17/2011 11:43:24 PM)

Senno, I still think catastrophe might be awaiting just around the corner [:D] I will only be safe if on turn 15 or 16 he is still far from Moscow and Leningrad [8D]



Manstein63 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 12:06:28 AM)

I notice that you have built a lot of forts at 16 ap points each dont you think that it a waste of valuable ap points?
Manstein63



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 12:08:17 AM)

In the Kalinin Front, I wonder what are his plans [&:] His AGC Northern Panzer Army should be on the move again... gaps, I love 'eeeeem!

[image]local://upfiles/11562/234E0BA98A874CD0ACC2552420E7E51A.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 12:11:15 AM)

Manstein, I don't have STAVKA strategic reserves left [:(] And Leningrad is my second prioritary target. So, I have to do all I can to protect it. Expensive? Yes, I know. But luckily my armies are already rather well organized: leaders, support [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 1:26:36 AM)

No big changes in the Western and Bryansk Fronts. In theory his AGC southern panzer army should be heading towards the north, to possibly help there to capture Smolensk and Vitebsk... BUT he might want to form a pocket in the SOUTH... see next post...

[image]local://upfiles/11562/0E30800AE27548ADA51A05DA296554FC.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 1:34:32 AM)

His AGS Panzers advanced to the north... so my industry in Kharkov (the T-34 factories have been evacuated this turn) will apparently be saved [8D] On 2 turns I will get like 20 divisions. I will send them to this very weak front... I keep checkerboarding, escaping...

[image]local://upfiles/11562/82B409231A1C491B97AD3D53E6B036E1.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 1:37:46 AM)

Adding extra units for the Russians is just flat expensive in 1941. However, if you feel the need to add units and while it is more expensive than fortifications, I think it is better in the long run simply because there is more flexibility in using them. I would build extra rifle brigades over fortifications. With the city bonus close by, they will do ok digging (nothing flashy) especially if you wind up stacking two per hex (but then that is really expensive). The brigades will be with you (unless you decide to disband them) and you can move them around or later combine them to form rifle divisions. Eventually you will have to spend further points to disband those fortifications.

For command purposes, I don't know what "house" rules you are playing with, but I would flip all your Svir river guys to Stavka to free up command space in Leningrad front. I would also do the same for the guys you plan on leaving on the Finnish border north of Leningrad.

Overall, this remains a very entertaining AAR.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 1:54:07 AM)

Klydon, I suspect you are correct. Too late now [:)] Anyway, I only use FR to dig. They don't fight. When the enemy appears I disband them. By then they (along with local population) should have done their job: forts increased for the infantry.

As for house rules, we don't have any. Yes, I will attach the 7th Army to STAVKA itself.




randallw -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 2:42:51 AM)

The Soviet player doesn't really need to be raising up extra brigades or divisions, beyond what's already set up.  Enough replacement units show up that the bottleneck will be the amount of replacement men available to refit the units already out there.



alfonso -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 11:12:39 AM)

One of the darkest consequences of defending Leningrad and Moscow, is the "gap" around Velikiye Luki, because I have observed that there is no easy way to put much force in that place. If the Germans open a hole there, there is the posibility of a right hook against Leningrad or a South wheel against Smolensk. That happened once to me because I was so scared that I deployed the Reserve Front behind the Western Front, and not North of it, as perhaps you are doing (seems so looking your brown soldiers). Their Mot and Panzer Divisions he has there do not seem very strong at the moment, though. But beware if he is reparing the rail-line (by the way, where are now his repairing units?) to Velikiye Luki, because he could transfer more Panzer Divisions to that spot.

I think that the "direct" aproach to Moscow (the land bridge south of Vitebsk) is pretty closed now (perhaps even at a the risk of being a little bit "over-defended"), but it would be a pity to have the necessity of abandoning that region because of a threatening flanking movement. . Have you anything behind Smolensk?

Turns 6-10 aprox. are the most desperate for the Soviet player, in my opinion. Afterwards, you can deploy each turn a lot of useful "ants" coming as reinforcements ( a continuous stream of ZOCing brigades beginning at turn 12 or 13 or something like that). Perhaps you are just now at the nadir of your strengh...from now on, things are going to improve steadily. It seems as if you are very near of holding your 2 key objectives (Leningrad and Moscow). But never relax! Hitlerite Panzers can be very nasty.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 4:44:53 PM)

Ok, now I think I know his global strategy, he's shown his cards (perhaps not all of them though):

1) surprise, the center is spared. Consequence: I will be diverting many hordes to other fonts
2) ok, 2 panzer groups (AGN and AGC Nothern Panzer Army) in theory go for Leningrad: right hook apparently
3) and 2 panzer groups (AGS and AGC Southern Panzer Army) are in the south

Leningrad is next on my list --after Moscow, now in theory safe-- so that's where I am going to send my many hordes... And I have them: the ones I had concentrated in the center to contain him in case he was pushing hard in this area. If 2ndACR wants it he will get it [sm=00000055.gif] [:)]

And now off to the swimming pool.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/18/2011 8:48:11 PM)

Turn 9

14 august 1941


Ok, I won't be doing the turn today but now that a new phase of the game has just started and that I more or less know what might be my estimated e-enemy's various plans I'll de discussing some [so-called & obviously half-ar***] strategic considerations [:D]

P.S.: and by the way, I hope my opponent's plans are as shabby as mines [sm=innocent0001.gif]


[image]local://upfiles/11562/957BF3EA420C4FC8AB7671D580CABA2E.jpg[/image]



Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.78125