RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/11/2017 1:37:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yer posing a question based on the premise that I know there's something special about the GR.VI?

I know it's a four-engine bomber with good range. I know there's no enemy opposition in the hex (it's a level one airfield with supply issues and John can't chance having disabled planes stuck here and then destroyed).

What's special about the GR.VI?


It is Naval Search Radar which raises the DL. Also it only carries 250 pound bombs vs the usuall 500 pounders. Best for naval search and ASW work.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/11/2017 1:52:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your comment came across as an expression of surprise that I had used the GR.VI in that way, and as an inquiry to find out if there was a method to my madness. There wasn't, so I had to point out that I was ignorant.

I understand the concepts of logistics and massed use of force in the game, but I am pretty ignorant of what goes on under the hood. Some players love to look at airplanes stats or figure out how the AI resolves particular types of combat. I'm not good at digesting and understanding that kind of information, so I don't do it. That can work to my disadvantage, as in this case where I didn't know: (1) the GR.VI carries a lighter load; (2) has radar; and (3) is night bomber. Now I know, and more importantly it'll prompt me to take a closer look at all those other classes of Brit 4EB (I wondered why there were endless varieties with about three in the pools, at best).



Ive been using The "Aircraft Comparison" section of WitPTracker to get info when not playing and been concentrating on radar equipped planes. Don't know why they never put radar on B17s in the Pacific. I try to have B17s and PBYs together, let the B17 do day and most of the PBYS do night.
As Lowpe pointed out the Brits do get some interesting bombers.



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/11/2017 3:26:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your comment came across as an expression of surprise that I had used the GR.VI in that way, and as an inquiry to find out if there was a method to my madness. There wasn't, so I had to point out that I was ignorant.

I understand the concepts of logistics and massed use of force in the game, but I am pretty ignorant of what goes on under the hood. Some players love to look at airplanes stats or figure out how the AI resolves particular types of combat. I'm not good at digesting and understanding that kind of information, so I don't do it. That can work to my disadvantage, as in this case where I didn't know: (1) the GR.VI carries a lighter load; (2) has radar; and (3) is night bomber. Now I know, and more importantly it'll prompt me to take a closer look at all those other classes of Brit 4EB (I wondered why there were endless varieties with about three in the pools, at best).



Ive been using The "Aircraft Comparison" section of WitPTracker to get info when not playing and been concentrating on radar equipped planes. Don't know why they never put radar on B17s in the Pacific. I try to have B17s and PBYs together, let the B17 do day and most of the PBYS do night.
As Lowpe pointed out the Brits do get some interesting bombers.


Primarily because by the time radar came along in adequate numbers they just did not need the B17 for that purpose. The Liberator proved to be a much more adaptable long rang patrol bomber than the B17. Because the wing of the B17 went through the aircraft whereas the liberator's wings did not the liberator had a much larger and more versatile bomb bay. Also, the liberator was much more suited for extra fuel tanks for long range missions. The B17's history in the Pacific was limited and fairly short. It was being phased out at the time air borne radar was being phased in. Otherwise the B17 was a very good and reliable patrol bomber and used for that purpose before the liberator replaced it.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 12:43:03 AM)

quote:


Canoerebel

I understand the concepts of logistics and massed use of force in the game...




That's one of the great things about WitPAE - there are so many aspects to it, each with it's own depth of application in the game. Always something new to learn in both breadth and depth.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 12:54:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your comment came across as an expression of surprise that I had used the GR.VI in that way, and as an inquiry to find out if there was a method to my madness. There wasn't, so I had to point out that I was ignorant.

I understand the concepts of logistics and massed use of force in the game, but I am pretty ignorant of what goes on under the hood. Some players love to look at airplanes stats or figure out how the AI resolves particular types of combat. I'm not good at digesting and understanding that kind of information, so I don't do it. That can work to my disadvantage, as in this case where I didn't know: (1) the GR.VI carries a lighter load; (2) has radar; and (3) is night bomber. Now I know, and more importantly it'll prompt me to take a closer look at all those other classes of Brit 4EB (I wondered why there were endless varieties with about three in the pools, at best).



Ive been using The "Aircraft Comparison" section of WitPTracker to get info when not playing and been concentrating on radar equipped planes. Don't know why they never put radar on B17s in the Pacific. I try to have B17s and PBYs together, let the B17 do day and most of the PBYS do night.
As Lowpe pointed out the Brits do get some interesting bombers.


Primarily because by the time radar came along in adequate numbers they just did not need the B17 for that purpose. The Liberator proved to be a much more adaptable long rang patrol bomber than the B17. Because the wing of the B17 went through the aircraft whereas the liberator's wings did not the liberator had a much larger and more versatile bomb bay. Also, the liberator was much more suited for extra fuel tanks for long range missions. The B17's history in the Pacific was limited and fairly short. It was being phased out at the time air borne radar was being phased in. Otherwise the B17 was a very good and reliable patrol bomber and used for that purpose before the liberator replaced it.



Informative, thanks. I guess it was asking too much for the B17 to be the Belle of Europe and the Pacific. The B17 was pushed as bomber to hit shipping in the discussions to get it into production, however the B24 does have more of a seafaring look to it. Very PBY-ish. Versatility - The B24 was even fitted with a new tail section - Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer. And Ive seen pics of a B24 with A B17 nose section.



Barb -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 7:20:48 AM)

Actually GR stands for General Reconnaissance - equipped with radar it is actually the Naval Search/ASW platform.
Reduced Bomb load - for longer range
Reduced armament - you dont need gun sticking out of the every hole you have - simply because you probably wont find that many fighters deep over the sea.

Liberator GR marks are just that - Naval Search planes. Belly turret was not necessary because they would fly low and dive down to deck to prevent enemy fighters attacks from below. A forward, top and rear turret is just about what would really be necessary.
Same goes for PB4Y Liberators/Privateers and PV-1 Ventura/PV-2 Harpoon - Usually armed more lightly than regular bombers, long range patrol planes equipped with radar for day/night search.

In game the Radar carried gives chance to detect and get higher DL on naval targets. Of course actually most of the players here are using these planes just like the regular bombers flying daily bombing mission of whatever is in range. Try to put them to the work they were made for :D e.g. those jap subs near Boela... put a Liberator GR/PB4Y on ASW mission and let them work. You will get rid of those subs quickly.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 3:02:32 PM)

8/19/44

Peep Show: The Allies take Chaochow, basically eliminating all enemy resistances between Hong Kong and Wenchow.

DEI: Death Star continuing to refuel at Sorong while waiting for Mini DS to come up. KB seems bound for the South China Sea.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/4B562E1991BA49118C3C2A138E08A47E.jpg[/image]



dave sindel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 4:33:07 PM)

I'm very interested in seeing how the night bombing attack(s) go.



Flicker -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/12/2017 8:52:37 PM)

Thanks for the discussion about the best use of certain planes. I try to find the 'best' use of ships and planes (also full or busy hands) and every little bit helps.

Concur with dave, looking forward to night bombing.



Barb -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 6:18:52 AM)

A most famous quote - "If you know others and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles"
applies here too... know your tools, and know that of your enemies ... :) And use them appropriately. [;)]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 4:22:17 PM)

8/20/44

Battle of Miri: Full KB moves on Miri, where LBA sweeps combine with naval air strikes. The air battles come out roughly even and the strikes badly damaged one USN DD. Overall, though, this is a huge allocation of enemy power that accomplishes little on the day.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/C884BBADD7FC4FD8B2888A6137D32719.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 4:42:15 PM)

8/20/44

Peep Show: John showed some fight today, as he posted strong CAP over Takao, Formosa, and employed two DDs to bombard Foochow, to little effect (except doing so alerted him that I have B-29s there).

There will be an ebb and flow of fighting in Formosa, in China, and in Indochina, over the coming weeks. But in none of those locations can John hope to stand toe-to-toe with Allied troops that are supported by air power. He can pick and choose his moments to achieve temporary and local superiority. Overall, though, the Allied position is growing very strong.

The only way he can really stand toe-to-toe for a slugfest is to employ KB. I don't know if he has any intention of doing that.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/029A463DB3A04D5383DBA6F0E4C1BDC0.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 4:46:38 PM)

8/20/44

Air Losses: Tough fighting today, but overall the Allied air forces did pretty well.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/5716868365D44D768C9EDBD120686F63.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 5:02:54 PM)

8/20/44

DS and Mini DS: The two armadas will combine tomorrow and DS has refueled as much as it could. So this little dance is nearly complete, and the combined force can return to the Formosa AOO.

Mini DS is bringing 370k+ fuel, which combined with refueling in the DEI will permit operations into the medium term. It should be enough to fully handle Formosa, some activity elsewhere, and eventually the "operation" to escort empties back to the DEI or the Pacific (at both places, additional TKs with fuel will be ready).

[image]local://upfiles/8143/92EA4FFE3C6D4A5FA6157581A98CD334.jpg[/image]



witpqs -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 5:19:30 PM)

I assume you have the supply convoy(s) in tow as well?



DRF99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 5:28:34 PM)

Knowing where the KB is, couldn't you simply escort the empty cargo ships and tankers straight out to the Marshals? It seems like the miniDS could handle just about any LBA attacks from the Guam, Saipan, Truk, etc.

You must have 400-500 or more transport ships sitting around in the Philippines.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 5:38:57 PM)

Yes, Mini Death Star is escorting the supply/fuel/reinforcement TFs. 700k+ supply and 370k+ fuel and some good ground units.

Yes, I have a zillion empty ships in Luzon, awaiting the proper moment to egress, either to the DEI or to the Pacific. The plan and timing for the egress is pretty much set in place, now. It'll be awhile but it will happen.



jwolf -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 5:55:04 PM)

Regarding the Lexington: at this point are you just trying to hide it from attack, or actually move it to a major repair facility? Got an ARD anywhere?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 6:33:01 PM)

8/20/44

CV Lexington: See graphic for details.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/37A735FD9A024A3E8342231DA98DA315.jpg[/image]



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 7:20:35 PM)

So John went ahead and finally attacked Miri - interesting choice, but in a way somewhat consistent with his ongoing apparent desire to be "doing something."

Obviously, he has a small window of opportunity here, until the DS makes it way back to the area - I'm wondering what he intends to do with it?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 7:28:28 PM)

If he reduces Miri's supply of oil or destroys its oil production and refining capabilities, he will justifiably take comfort in that.

But it won't really affect my operations. To this point, I've only used Miri's fuel for subs, and subs right now are playing a miniscule role in the game. My subs seem to pose a greater risk to themselves than to the enemy. Enemy ASW is lethal, and my subs haven't targeted a decent enemy vessel in several months now. You might think, "Well, position them better!" But they've been positioned right in front of enemy carrier TFs, which then trampled all over them.

What I'm saying is that subs are a minor part of the game and I'm not using (or counting on) Miri's fuel for anything important.

Since KB has stopped to mess with Miri, I'd guess John isn't planning to go to Formosa's aid. If he was, he'd be moving fast to get there before Death Star could return.




MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 8:09:06 PM)

quote:

But they've been positioned right in front of enemy carrier TFs, which then trampled all over them.



Maybe put them around softer targets. Like Palembang, Balikpapan and other fuel/resource ports he may be moving stuff from. Or blockade ports on Japan Home Island. Send your rats after the cheese, not the cat. This may cause him to chase your subs with KB instead of the other way around. Submarine warfare is a study unto itself.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 8:13:47 PM)

A month ago, I made that change. My subs are concentrated around Boela, Miri and Formosa - places where I have CAP up, which suppresses John's use of air ASW (until KB shows up and dominates the scene).

Using subs anywhere else that he's using E-class ships or air ASW is useless. Palembang, Singapore, Home Islands, whatever: ASW clobbers subs.

I expected this, from reading the AARs of others, like Bullwinkle and crsutton. There are other good uses of subs - to serve as tripwires and to "flood the zone" when it's likely that enemy combat TFs will be damaged in combat. That's what I'm focusing on now, though I do want to give my subs a day or two around Miri, just in hopes that by sheer weight of numbers they finally strike. I can just picture one of them putting two TTs into Shokaku....



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 8:19:34 PM)

quote:

ASW clobbers subs.



From reading the forum, late war Japanese ASW seems to be very good.



Jellicoe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 9:03:16 PM)

Do you think that John ever realised the Lexington was at Boela? I am not so sure he did as one would have assumed that he would have gone after Boela over Ternate with the KB and associated surface forces if he had trult known she was there before the arrival of the DS. A lone damaged carrier with a full KB nearby is total catnip to JIII

Still, getting her into a lovely Manilla shipyard will be good and she will repair much more quickly than the more heavily damaged Sumatra. Maybe you do need Hong Kong after all, one yard per carrier.

What is that big red blob that has emerged into the clear hex next to Canton? Have you sent something to recon by bombing?



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 9:09:20 PM)

Curious, but what is the aggression rating of your sub commanders (in general)?

If they mostly have a "high" aggression, could that lead to the US Subs being targeted and sunk because they are staying near the surface and looking for contacts and/or firing solutions on 'anything'....

....Whereas, if they had a "low" aggression, they'd be more willing to "run and hide" (i.e. dive and dive deep) from his ASW assets and only pop up for the occasional "easy target"?

I don't know, just curious if putting low aggression commanders would increase their ability to survive (if they mostly have high aggression). Then again, having low aggression, maybe they won't "drive home" an attack on a CV that's in their sights. Again... IDK... thoughts from the peanut gallery?



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 9:49:43 PM)

I just checked - in stock, Manila SY is 20K tons capacity. An Essex carrier is 27K tons - too big to go in the drydock to repair float damage. Did John increase the SY size in this game?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/13/2017 10:17:40 PM)

BBfanboy: Manila shipyard is size 40 in this mod.

AcePylut: good observation about sub commander aggression ratings. I've seen Lowpe use the tactic you refer to. I'll give that a try (assuming any of my subs survive through tomorrow, ha ha).



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/14/2017 1:23:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

Do you think that John ever realised the Lexington was at Boela? I am not so sure he did as one would have assumed that he would have gone after Boela over Ternate with the KB and associated surface forces if he had trult known she was there before the arrival of the DS. A lone damaged carrier with a full KB nearby is total catnip to JIII

Still, getting her into a lovely Manilla shipyard will be good and she will repair much more quickly than the more heavily damaged Sumatra. Maybe you do need Hong Kong after all, one yard per carrier.

What is that big red blob that has emerged into the clear hex next to Canton? Have you sent something to recon by bombing?


John had high detection on Boela, so he probably knew there was a damaged carrier in port. I'm sure the torpedoing of CVs Sumatra and Lexington are etched in his memory, so he probably did some educated guessing and came up with the right answers.

The "big red blob" east of Canton is just 4k troops.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (6/14/2017 1:28:19 PM)

I had some extra time with this turn before I sent it this morning, so I made a few tweaks:

1. Per AcePylut's suggestion, I switched the commanders of two subs at Miri to low-aggression gents. I'll begin cycling subs into port to continue. It can't hurt.

2. Lexington is moderately damaged but capable of flight ops, so I moved four Avenger squadrons from airfields to her. These are dedicated fully to ASW settings.

3. There is a big AO TF accompanying Mini DS. I had all the important TFs draw fuel from her. Then I detached the TF from Mini DS to steam to Sorong, where she'll do similar duty tomorrow, allowing more Death Star TFs to refuel. That'll empty out the AOs and allow them to retire to Oz. That'll keep some of my oiler capacity in rear areas rather than forward in the Philippines.



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