RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (Full Version)

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Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/10/2014 5:03:46 PM)

The problem with a picture posting is I am using windows 8 and I am absolutely completely lost. I am glad sometimes that I can open the game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey

Wow, I'm at turn 31 and I've just captured naples and I thought I was going slow. I took Naples to unstop my Salerno invasion.

Maybe I'm going too reckless and I'm in for a fall. I'll try to post a screen shot later today.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 3:22:24 AM)

I've heard bad things about Win8 and I'm glad I'm still using Win7 myself.

Anyway, this is the T39 front lines on the West side. I'm running out of steam but I don't have all that far left to go to get
that precious supply point.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/C5518B02C81648EC88316477B3B0ABD1.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 4:06:54 AM)

Here's the East side now. T39 and supply is good and I've run into some more Axis interference and I'm moving to surround it and see
if I can't destroy it economically. No hurry I guess. I've got time to bring up the arty and get some pounding in before I tackle even the
little stuff.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/AABABEDC5D554326A572AF0B2FA0281A.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 12:24:04 PM)

Here's the East side in T41........I've driven a recon unit into Foggia itself and I've cut off supply to a lot of the German AA units there
and I'm going to be doing mopping up operations for a while.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/6BE5909927764AF8A1689DE9A0895976.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 12:28:21 PM)

Here's the West side in T41. The Germans have pulled back into the one hex that I want and it's looking like I need to pound that stack
by air for several turns to whittle down the arty strength and decrease the readiness of the units in that hex. Low supply levels are a
major hassle still.

EDIT: I'm speaking of course of the target hex being the supply point at Paestum.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/39D1CF08504C4AB381BC83AFBE81024F.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 1:12:54 PM)

I did a three-dot attack and finally captured the Paestum supply point. Now supply is excellent and we're pushing north again. And on
the East side we've surrounded the AA units at Foggia and we're in mop up there. I've transfered the RR engineers to the East side
again to continue extending the rail north to Foggia.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/19D41041F0F24CA987019B9139E2563D.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 2:13:15 PM)

Here's the T43 front lines.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/3B163F8A6B1248BE8EB7ABC67DD97829.gif[/image]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 2:47:08 PM)

Larry: How do you advance the rail line so fast? What engineers do you use? I'm using what I've got (and following your path) but my rail head is advancing very slow.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 3:03:01 PM)

I'm using everybody who can repair a rail including what I'm calling regular engineers and the dedicated RR engineers ( two of them ).
There's probably close to a dozen or more total trying to repair this section of rail. I thought my rail line was advancing slow too.
Are you having special difficulties or something?

[image]local://upfiles/16287/0336C5861160467FB5847D4575800CD6.gif[/image]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 4:06:57 PM)

I'm not getting any real production out of anybody but the 2 RR Eng units. Perhaps it is a waste to use the combat engineers in this role. I'd think that given 2.5 week turns a lot of rail would be repaired. I'm going to divide the RR Eng units and see if I get any better production out of them that way. I'll try that tonight when I play again. That said, I think it is a flaw in the TOAW game system that converting a hex to your control automatically destroys the rail line in it. Bridges aren't automatically destroyed, nor are airfields.

Larry would you give me some pointers on how to post a map picture. How do I take a picture of it? What program do I use? I think I have MS paint. I'm lost.

I am going to take a "breather" in my advance, and organize my front. My units are getting intermingled and I like to keep the divisions together more or less. It doesn't help game play as most units are on free support, however I like it that way as it is more historical. And I need to sort the Brits and Americans out. Everyone is also way down on supply. Low Allied supply is historical, and I'm ok with that. Its also a check on overly risky advances and invasions. Fighting with low supply casualties build up fast that way. The Mediterranean front was not someplace where the Allies were going to win the war (unlike NE Europe) so excessive casualties as a result an risky rapid advance was a bad trade. Casualties were high enough as it was. Perhaps Steve could modify the scenario to great penalize the Allies for casualties.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 5:48:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
I'm not getting any real production out of anybody but the 2 RR Eng units. Perhaps it is a waste to use the combat engineers in this role.

I'm not getting much production out of anybody but the 2 RR engineers units too. But I don't know what else to use them to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
I'd think that given 2.5 week turns a lot of rail would be repaired. I'm going to divide the RR Eng units and see if I get any better production out of them that way. I'll try that tonight when I play again. That said, I think it is a flaw in the TOAW game system that converting a hex to your control automatically destroys the rail line in it. Bridges aren't automatically destroyed, nor are airfields.

Lemme know how dividing your RR engineer units works out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
Larry would you give me some pointers on how to post a map picture. How do I take a picture of it? What program do I use? I think I have MS paint. I'm lost.

You bet. I've put together a sort of tutorial on the subject and made a thread for it. You can find it here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3375308

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
I am going to take a "breather" in my advance, and organize my front. My units are getting intermingled and I like to keep the divisions together more or less. It doesn't help game play as most units are on free support, however I like it that way as it is more historical. And I need to sort the Brits and Americans out. Everyone is also way down on supply. Low Allied supply is historical, and I'm ok with that. Its also a check on overly risky advances and invasions. Fighting with low supply casualties build up fast that way. The Mediterranean front was not someplace where the Allies were going to win the war (unlike NE Europe) so excessive casualties as a result an risky rapid advance was a bad trade. Casualties were high enough as it was. Perhaps Steve could modify the scenario to great penalize the Allies for casualties.

My units are getting intermingled too. I thought maybe I should move the British units to the East side of the peninsula and use the
American units on the West side to help out with the intermingling. It's working ok so far. I've found that I still have some British
units on the West side that I need to move but I'm in no hurry.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 7:58:40 PM)

Hey Petey - good points, and for your consideration:

quote:

I'd think that given 2.5 week turns a lot of rail would be repaired.


Since a repaired rail that is connected to a supply point is as good as a supply point, the repairs may not necessarily represent actual historical repair abilities. In some scenarios the repairs will represent the rate of infrastructure repair (all that goes into the movement of supplies from the point of origin to the front line).

quote:

I'm going to divide the RR Eng units and see if I get any better production out of them that way.


Won't help, dividing scales the % chance of repairs. You can see this number in the Unit Report, on the right under Special Abilities. Movement also reduces the % chance.

quote:

... a flaw in the TOAW game system that converting a hex to your control automatically destroys the rail line in it.


This is set by the designer, so its scenario specific and not a TOAW thing.

quote:

Perhaps Steve could modify the scenario to great penalize the Allies for casualties.


Casualty Penalties don't work as well as it seems, so for now I'm going with low replacement rates. But so far we haven't seen a real 'slog up the boot' type of campaign, so I'm not sure if the current settings are correct.

Thanks [sm=00000436.gif]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 8:57:32 PM)

Thanks for the tutorial Larry. Very helpful.

How do I copy the map and create a file to edit before I upload. All I can seem to do is create a jpg of the entire map.

Sorry for the many questions.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:11:28 PM)

Find your print screen key on your keyboard. It's sometimes abbreviated PRT SCR and it's usually near F12 key somewhere. What
you do is get the view you want to capture and just press the print screen key one time. Nothing will appear to have happened but
if you now start up MSPaint and do a "Paste" operation you'll see the "picture you took" appear and then you can save it as a file.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/846080BC238A459C8053F1DCD57D998F.gif[/image]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:12:50 PM)

Yes Steve, all very good points.

You hit the nail on the head with your comment about the missing "slog up the boot" campaign. Elmer's refusal (or inability) to establish fixed defensive lines is the real nut of the problem. The allies' ability to constantly trap and surround Axis units piecemeal and eliminate them is the crux of the problem.

Eliminating the Italian partisans was a good move. Elmer can't deal with them effectively and they were a nuisance to move around.

Still its a great scenario and lots of fun, and I am enjoying it! Thanks for your many efforts on this (and other) scenarios.

BTW, what is the very latest version of the game? I am playing with 3.4, however Larry implied in a comment in his game with John Fogger that there were later mods. Did I misinterpret that, and if not where can I obtain them?


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Hey Petey - good points, and for your consideration:

quote:

I'd think that given 2.5 week turns a lot of rail would be repaired.


Since a repaired rail that is connected to a supply point is as good as a supply point, the repairs may not necessarily represent actual historical repair abilities. In some scenarios the repairs will represent the rate of infrastructure repair (all that goes into the movement of supplies from the point of origin to the front line).

quote:

I'm going to divide the RR Eng units and see if I get any better production out of them that way.


Won't help, dividing scales the % chance of repairs. You can see this number in the Unit Report, on the right under Special Abilities. Movement also reduces the % chance.

quote:

... a flaw in the TOAW game system that converting a hex to your control automatically destroys the rail line in it.


This is set by the designer, so its scenario specific and not a TOAW thing.

quote:

Perhaps Steve could modify the scenario to great penalize the Allies for casualties.


Casualty Penalties don't work as well as it seems, so for now I'm going with low replacement rates. But so far we haven't seen a real 'slog up the boot' type of campaign, so I'm not sure if the current settings are correct.

Thanks [sm=00000436.gif]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:19:02 PM)

By the way Steve, how do I view the % chance to repair a rail hex?

I know how to do the same for a bridge attack; I seem to remember it can be done also for rail repair probability.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:28:17 PM)

quote:

BTW, what is the very latest version of the game? I am playing with 3.4, however Larry implied in a comment in his game with John Fogger that there were later mods. Did I misinterpret that, and if not where can I obtain them?

Hey there Petey..........um....the latest is 3.6 and Ralph is making TOAW ever better all the time. To obtain a copy of 3.6 I guess
you'd have to talk to the development team leader, Curtis LeMay ( Bob ). I've heard through the grapevine that there's some scenario
designers that have a copy of 3.5 but I haven't heard of anybody outside of the development team having a copy of 3.6

[image]local://upfiles/16287/A3A2BB4BBBDA43AFB271C23C2C9AEF2F.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:35:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey

By the way Steve, how do I view the % chance to repair a rail hex?

I know how to do the same for a bridge attack; I seem to remember it can be done also for rail repair probability.

[ raises hand ] I know, I know....pick me.[ /raises ]

Look under the special abilities panel of the unit display for the RR engineer. It's like 99% for the whole unit and something
like 33% if it's one of the pieces of a broken down unit.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/777F3D14FB794B5DA1C4B82BD6A29068.gif[/image]



FrankieITA -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:41:27 PM)

I'm still playing this too, I'm currently cautiously approaching Gothic Line in turn 108(July '44).
Logistics seems to be the real bottleneck, dividing the campaign in long and tedious "reach your front with the rail" followed by dense action turns where you have plenty to attack and conquer.
Still feeling that strategic taste, I'm starting to think that half week turns are best suited for this scenario. I wouldn't change anything to the rail repair, at the moment Allies struggles with the logistics and it's historical correct.
Don't forget that the Allied broke Gothic Line in April '45, I've played this scenario thrice and I've always outdone them, one time even going all up to Brenner Pass for February '45.



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 9:49:22 PM)

Thanks Larry, that's very helpful.

Yes it seems many of the engineer units have a very low % to repair rail lines.

Larry I've been meaning to ask you about your graphics.

My rail lines are not very distinct. Enemy are red and friendly are black but otherwise not very clear. And my possession view is orange dashes for friendly and black dashes for enemy. Colors are different; overall many features are not as clear as what you post online. Ive tried all the views. Are you doing something fundamentally different or am I just a PITA?




By the way Steve, how do I view the % chance to repair a rail hex?

I know how to do the same for a bridge attack; I seem to remember it can be done also for rail repair probability.
[/quote]
[ raises hand ] I know, I know....pick me.[ /raises ]

Look under the special abilities panel of the unit display for the RR engineer. It's like 99% for the whole unit and something
like 33% if it's one of the pieces of a broken down unit.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 10:11:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
I'm still playing this too, I'm currently cautiously approaching Gothic Line in turn 108(July '44).
Logistics seems to be the real bottleneck, dividing the campaign in long and tedious "reach your front with the rail" followed by dense action turns where you have plenty to attack and conquer.
Still feeling that strategic taste, I'm starting to think that half week turns are best suited for this scenario. I wouldn't change anything to the rail repair, at the moment Allies struggles with the logistics and it's historical correct.
Don't forget that the Allied broke Gothic Line in April '45, I've played this scenario thrice and I've always outdone them, one time even going all up to Brenner Pass for February '45.

So you've given me a benchmark to try to match. Thanks. I didn't really have a "goal date" thinking I was roughly in the historical
schedule. Pictures, I want to see pictures. Brenner Pass by Feb. '45 that's really good. I'll see if I can't do that too.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 10:17:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
Larry I've been meaning to ask you about your graphics.

I have installed something called a JMASS as I recall. I don't remember where I got it but I googled "TOAW mods" and found this
web site where there's lots of graphics mods for TOAW. Here's where it is:
http://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/category/graphic-mods/

Let me know how it works out for you. Pick one of the best ones and try it out.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/11/2014 10:50:13 PM)

quote:

You hit the nail on the head with your comment about the missing "slog up the boot" campaign. Elmer's refusal (or inability) to establish fixed defensive lines is the real nut of the problem. The allies' ability to constantly trap and surround Axis units piecemeal and eliminate them is the crux of the problem.


But I swear I can do better, and this scenario seems perfect for it. There are no open flanks or map edges that can be played. The Germans could use more units (which would help Elmer), and I can always reduce unit size to provide that. As everybody has seen, the partisans really messed Elmer up, so now that they are out we should get some better results.

And because there are different style players, we need guys like you that are willing to play these things and put forth opinions. Everything counts, and the players that don't post but pay attention sometimes get the help they need also. Plus, if nobody posted, I would probably go back to my 2002-2008 days when I modded stuff for myself and didn't offer anything to the public.

So, thanks everybody ! [&o]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 2:37:45 AM)

A (minor) trick I've discovered tonight on rail repair is that when you make the attempt at repair (i.e. order the unit to "repair rail") it is resolved immediately. You can hover the cursor over the hex to see if it has a "rail" or a "broken rail". If it broken you can move in an another engineer; if its repaired you can move on to repair another hex. Prior to this I was stacking eng units and ordering them all to repair the hex.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 3:21:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
A (minor) trick I've discovered tonight on rail repair is that when you make the attempt at repair (i.e. order the unit to "repair rail") it is resolved immediately. You can hover the cursor over the hex to see if it has a "rail" or a "broken rail". If it broken you can move in an another engineer; if its repaired you can move on to repair another hex. Prior to this I was stacking eng units and ordering them all to repair the hex.

Maybe that's why you weren't getting the performance you needed from them earlier? Anyway, good catch. Way to go.

Here's the T46 front lines. I'm thinking of moving some of the American units from the West side to Taranto via boat and then
moving them to the north to the front lines as they are by the time they arrive there and then move west with them clearing out the
middle of the map. The West side has fallen behind schedule and are lagging behind. But I did want to keep the East side moving
to the Gustav Line where ever it is. Not far.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/46B8446A4F014835BFFBFB286F598726.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 3:32:14 AM)

Here's a close up on the West side now. I've surrounded a lot of German stuff and I'm going to take it down as soon as I can to get the
advance moving again. The supply point is pumping out supplies and I've got lots of units present to move north. It's just that I have to
get rid of this roadblock first.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/A6556EFA9ABE41E7815F2B58C630A9AE.gif[/image]



Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 3:43:18 AM)

Interesting Larry. I'll try to get some pictures posted tommorow. I'll work on the tutorials you gave me.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 5:29:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
Interesting Larry. I'll try to get some pictures posted tomorrow. I'll work on the tutorials you gave me.

Sounds good. Good hunting.

Um......This is the West side in T48. I've gone a long way to reduce the roadblock and the units moving west from the East side
have reached Napoli already. So I'm thinking I don't need to invade Napoli, I'll own it anyway before too much longer. And I've seen
lots of German units moving via rail toward Rome and I'm guessing they, the Germans, have already staffed and fully-manned the
Gustov line. we're due for a giant leap forward on the West side.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/9960183AE8DF47DE88E7024A929DD1EA.gif[/image]



FrankieITA -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 7:24:54 AM)

You asked and you've got it.
Here is my situation in the western sector: US II and US IV Corps are sharing a bridgehead north to the Arno river using rivers Sieve (eastern one) and Serchio (western) and protecting Pistoia. From there US 5th Army should try to force the Gothic line in two attacks, one straight north to Bologna, the other Northwest along the coast to Genova. In this AO we don't have got plenty of reserves, since I'm not that confortable using Canadian troops in the american sector (house rule here) I'm cautiosly advancing when I see holes in enemy defences but not pushing too hard. Supplies are starting to flourish but I'll be more happy when we'll reach Firenze with the railroad.
Corps commander are not cleared to go on offensive but they've got the liberty to grab something if they can.
PS: sorry for overlaying grid, I always forget to hide it when I shoot screenshots.

[image]local://upfiles/47491/C5CE0B23B1A840C192288119553BF803.jpg[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/12/2014 7:31:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
You asked and you've got it.
Here is my situation in the western sector: US II and US IV Corps are sharing a bridgehead north to the Arno river using rivers Sieve (eastern one) and Serchio (western) and protecting Pistoia. From there US 5th Army should try to force the Gothic line in two attacks, one straight north to Bologna, the other Northwest along the coast to Genova. In this AO we don't have got plenty of reserves, since I'm not that confortable using Canadian troops in the american sector (house rule here) I'm cautiosly advancing when I see holes in enemy defences but not pushing too hard. Supplies are starting to flourish but I'll be more happy when we'll reach Firenze with the railroad.
Corps commander are not cleared to go on offensive but they've got the liberty to grab something if they can.
PS: sorry for overlaying grid, I always forget to hide it when I shoot screenshots.

What an outstanding screenshot. I like the way you play......you're a lot more organized than I am. What turn is this shot? Cool post.



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