RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (Full Version)

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PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 2:34:54 AM)

I don't read the other one, but I can see who is posting ... and yes, there are far more AFB's on the forum ....



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 7:58:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Have the Allied fleet escaped the Marianas already? [:(][:(]

That was your golden occasion to drive a decisive battle on favorable terms...

You can still do a lot.

This is probably a good time to discuss a little as to what is going on here.

Yes, the Allied fleet has "escaped." My sub recon has not recovered sufficiently to get a definitive read, but it appears that it has "escaped" all the way back to Pearl.

He has left a lot of PT boats there and some ASW. No subs detected.

Also no air which makes sense as he can not protect it from sea bombardments.


quote:

Bombard the occupied Marianas, attack the remaining shipping there... waiting for the expected reinforcements to come back.

Even if Rio is enjoying of air land based air support now there, your numbers are still enough to muster an offensive.

I have bombarded once and will again occasionally if I think I can sink a few more ships but will not waste a lot of supplies doing so.

As mentioned above, he has no air there for now.


quote:


You could even plan for counter invasion of the occupied islands.

I agree with Pax on this one, see below.

quote:

That's not the end of the tale there!

* laughing * That is the understatement of the day. [:)] [:)]

-------------------------------

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I would tend to disagree ... now that he has a forward sub base (Guam) and active air fields, Marianas are a trap for you. venturing there will only prove more costly to you than he ... and he took multiple islands, so very difficult to contemplate any form of reaction counter attack. I would need 24 ID's (6 per island roughly) to go back with the entire Kaigun and the entire IJ air forces. Losses would be high in doing so ...

I agree with you for the reasons you state and a couple of others.

I am not questioning your experience in the least, but frankly, I don't think even twenty-four IDs would do it. He has more than 3K AV on Guam alone, total support, and if I know Rio, more supplies than I have in Tokyo.

I have seven IDs, no Armor, and very little Artillery. I do have a lot of Engineers though. [:)]

--------------------------

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I would consider at least the counter invasion of one of the islands, to start with. All the Kaigun present? Well, as default. He's coming back soon , seemingly.

If, and I don't, but if I had enough forces to re-take all of the islands, I would, simply because Rio has everything he has outside of Burma here, and to destroy all of that would be a game changer.

But taking one island would serve little purpose. I would eventually lose the forces or have them imprisoned there.

quote:

Sub threat, a pain, but reciprocal. And, we also could and should have our ASW squadrons and flottillas roaming and make feeling their impact around.

The sub threat is more than a pain. I have three carriers and two BBs in the yard via subs. The carriers will be back in two weeks, six weeks and five months and the BBs are out for one and four months.

And, it is not reciprocal. When he brings his subs there, he brings them all. He has more subs than I have ASW ships and a/c combined, and, Japanese ASW is practicality useless, IMO.

quote:

Mine warfare was somehow underplayed by El Lobo I think, in previous round.


True. I am working on that, but still don't know how to make midgets.

quote:

............, granted that Lobo takes up the challenge.

That I will be doing. More on that later.




el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 8:00:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
You raise a good point Pax. I have read both AARs in this game, which is why I have not posted anything in either AAR. In general, this game and the two AARs demonstrates that allied AARs receive much more care and attention from the AFBs than Japanese-side AARs receive from those familiar with the Japanese position. For Japanese players, you and Lowpe are about the only ones who make a habit of chiming in with helpful tips and advice.

Welcome Aurorus. You make a good point yourself.



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 11:46:13 AM)

PACIFIC Jul 9, 1943 Turn 580

Not quite what I wanted. Need a better way to kill PTs.


[image]local://upfiles/45493/6ABD7A813725414D8D054F0427224373.jpg[/image]



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 12:34:28 PM)

PT's - in these numbers are hard to kill. Ideally, you would want Radar equipped DD's, but those you don't have. E's can work, BUT you need more numbers and you need good ship EXP and better leader skills than you are likely to get. This means committing DD's. SCTF's of 5-6 DD's each, multiply TF's. All high night exp. All good leaders. plan to lose 1 - 2 DD's, meaning on a VP basis a wash, but for you a loss. So, I wouldn't do it unless it is part of a bigger plan ...



Bif1961 -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 12:52:09 PM)

I have a house rule that you can only have 6 times current Port level for PT boats. Some abuse use of PT boats to waste the ammo of the opponents Bombardment TFs. If you have an AG you can have more than 6 per Port level. I am sure those things can be worked out before the game begins between players. I find 6 times Port level works out reasonably well.



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 2:31:02 PM)

Ok, no air....and you have bases and dots nearbye?

What do you have that can strafe? Fighters, Nicks, ...run them out of the bases you have nearbye at 1000 feet naval strike. Make sure you have lots of naval search too. Even Jakes flying at 2-4K can take out PT boats....mass them. Jills down low drop two bombs and will work at 3K.

YOu can also use the KB.. Judy and Jills will attack PT boats if detection is good...and the sub threat has lessened.

Kill those PT boats now!!!!!

Sub dropped mines....

Edit: with no air power...use remain in station and run in tons of destroyers, use your destroyer squadrons at night, and then have CLs and E run in during the day.

You will never have another opportunity like this!!!!!!![:)]






Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/30/2017 2:40:49 PM)

I agree with Pax about reconquista...very hard now, very, very difficult.

Get your artillery out of China to the degree you can. Make a decision on Chungking...closed and isolated and starving, or take it.

You have a pressing need for your troops to be elsewhere. Think about pulling the plug on the SRA...figure you only need enough fuel and oil to see Jan 1945.

Build several size 8 and 9 runways and have them overlap with bases in the rear behind the front lines too. Any of your front line air fields need mines, cd guns or at least dp guns. Distribute overlapping HQa...

A world map picture would be nice...from the Marianas the Allies can really go in a lot of directions...for me it was to Hokkaido and it sucked.[:(]



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 12:22:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
...for me it was to Hokkaido and it sucked.[:(]

You cannot lose Hokkaido ... or Korea. Game over in quick order when you do and little fun during that period.



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 9:32:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PT's - in these numbers are hard to kill. Ideally, you would want Radar equipped DD's, but those you don't have.

Pax.

I have twelve of these. Is this radar good enough?

[image]local://upfiles/45493/A4C0420EA3B64B59B2A665E5CC587ED1.jpg[/image]



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 9:50:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ok, no air....and you have bases and dots nearbye?

What do you have that can strafe? Fighters, Nicks, ...run them out of the bases you have nearbye at 1000 feet naval strike. Make sure you have lots of naval search too. Even Jakes flying at 2-4K can take out PT boats....mass them. Jills down low drop two bombs and will work at 3K.

YOu can also use the KB.. Judy and Jills will attack PT boats if detection is good...and the sub threat has lessened.

Kill those PT boats now!!!!!

Sub dropped mines....

Edit: with no air power...use remain in station and run in tons of destroyers, use your destroyer squadrons at night, and then have CLs and E run in during the day.

You will never have another opportunity like this!!!!!!![:)]

I have any kind of air you want one day out. All above is on the way,

Newbe question. How do I set day vs night on TFs?

Thanks.


[image]local://upfiles/45493/F46E1F715FAD4251B8C5C3ED94D21913.jpg[/image]



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 9:54:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

A world map picture would be nice...



[image]local://upfiles/45493/70A5CFCAB9F44C6D9C1C840977DDDFB4.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 12:08:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PT's - in these numbers are hard to kill. Ideally, you would want Radar equipped DD's, but those you don't have.

Pax.

I have twelve of these. Is this radar good enough?

[image]local://upfiles/45493/A4C0420EA3B64B59B2A665E5CC587ED1.jpg[/image]


That is air search...



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 12:14:45 PM)

7 hexes from Pagan...I hope that is a level 2 air base. Get some AV or air support on the dot bases and you can fly Jakes out low.

To arrive during the day simply count hexes...as there is a night movement phases followed by another phase. Use remain on station or better yet Patrol and your with absolute settings so they don't run away. You will fight the PT boats, and force them out of the hex -- most likely towards another base hex so make sure you send something there to.

With a little luck, and several combats you might run them out of fuel.

Remember, the PT boats will react...and you want to go in with aggressive commanders that will stick around and slug it out.

Don't lay mines the before or the day you go in...wait till after you leave lest you blunder into the minefields. Plus you want to sink his local minesweepers.



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 12:25:49 PM)

Correct, Type 13 is air search. You don't have sea search radar on DD's. [:@]

Mutzuki only has 68 night exp ... that's not very good. You cannot set it, but ships gain exp with use. Good night exp is +75, if you've been using DD's in ASW groups in conjunction with ASW air groups, you should have quite a few. Every time they attack a sub at night, the DD will gain a few points night exp ... by mid 43, I will generally have 40 - 60 SC, E, DD's that have + 75 night exp from their ASW work.

Lowpe's note about strafing attacks is also accurate, and given that you have air assets available; cheaper. He is also correct, you want to take these out now if you can ... the allies only get so many PT's ... if you can kill enough now, then you have neutralized the threat for some time ...



Rusty1961 -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (5/31/2017 11:32:08 PM)

Thanks for the information guys. I find this AAR very informative.



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 2:39:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Thanks for the information guys. I find this AAR very informative.

+1

Your comment and Aurorus's above addresses an issue that is always on the back of my mind while working on the Game.

Without support like this, newbies such as myself would have a lot harder time playing the Game effectively. I think that sometime we depend on our supporters too much. The information is out there but not everyone has the time, and sometime the motivation, to dig it out, and the means isn't all that great either.

I know that there is an up-dated Manual in the pipe-line but it has a couple of hurdles, one of which is the sheer volume. Even with help from Pax and others, Alfred has taken on a Herculean task. Another is how it is going to be presented, paper, electronically, or what?

IMO the ideal situation would be a wiki Manual, live, up-date able, correctable, expandable ... I have been on several Forums some of which have tried wikis, none of which succeeded. I know one was tried here with no success.

It is unfortunate as the future is passing by us.



Aurorus -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 3:09:39 AM)

I new manual would be helpful, but there is so much to the game that a manual alone is not enough to get new players playing at a good level. There are so many little tricks to the game to master and be wary of. There is also a lot of planning, especially for Japan, but for the allies as well, that requires some experience with the late war to do well. This is the type of thing that can only come from reading many AARs (which requires much time) or with helpful suggestions and tips from people who have played the game through to conclusion.



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 3:13:30 AM)

The future is not here yet, silly.[;)]



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 8:04:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I new manual would be helpful, but there is so much to the game that a manual alone is not enough to get new players playing at a good level. There are so many little tricks to the game to master and be wary of. There is also a lot of planning, especially for Japan, but for the allies as well, that requires some experience with the late war to do well. This is the type of thing that can only come from reading many AARs (which requires much time) or with helpful suggestions and tips from people who have played the game through to conclusion.

You will get no argument from me concerning your points.

I am just saying that it would be nice not to have the same questions ask again and again because there is no definitive location for the answers.

And as you pointed-out above, there are not that many players who give their time and experience. It would be nice to ease their burden and allow them to be more efficient at what helps the most.



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 8:05:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The future is not here yet, silly.[;)]

To argue that point I would say ............ oops too late.

Are you watching Genius on NatGo? It is "relative" to our debate.



el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 1:30:58 PM)

PRODUCTION Jul 10, 1943 Turn 581

Frank R R&D advanced to 5/45. The first Frank A unit has filled-out and is repairing, thirty-six a/c. Another Oscar unit will up-grade in a couple of more turns.

The Sam took a little leap in repairing R&D factories then plateaued again.

I am expanding overall Air and Engine production by ten to thirty factories a day. Most a/c are increasing inventory satisfactorily but I am still critical on Jills and Judys.



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 2:03:36 PM)

don't over shoot your factory sizes ... think through your target size, don't over build.
don't let transient shortage lead to excess capacity that ends up being idle most of the time ...
remember at this point, the allies have 'critical' shortages on every aircraft model, except for Wirraways. [:D]



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/1/2017 2:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

don't over shoot your factory sizes ... think through your target size, don't over build.
don't let transient shortage lead to excess capacity that ends up being idle most of the time ...
remember at this point, the allies have 'critical' shortages on every aircraft model, except for Wirraways. [:D]


To be honest, at this point, I don't think he can if it is all focused on fighters, Jills and Judys. Far more likely Honshu will be a burning ruin in 6 months time. My guess would be he needs to build 3,000 Franks over that time period to prevent it from happening...and my guess is that when the Army air expansion comes along in April of 44, he will wish he had built 4,000 Franks.[X(]

Of course this presupposes that the Allies go for the throat. If instead, they turn their attention to the SRA, well then you are right Pax.[:)]



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 12:42:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

don't over shoot your factory sizes ... think through your target size, don't over build.
don't let transient shortage lead to excess capacity that ends up being idle most of the time ...
remember at this point, the allies have 'critical' shortages on every aircraft model, except for Wirraways. [:D]


To be honest, at this point, I don't think he can if it is all focused on fighters, Jills and Judys. Far more likely Honshu will be a burning ruin in 6 months time. My guess would be he needs to build 3,000 Franks over that time period to prevent it from happening...and my guess is that when the Army air expansion comes along in April of 44, he will wish he had built 4,000 Franks.[X(]

Of course this presupposes that the Allies go for the throat. If instead, they turn their attention to the SRA, well then you are right Pax.[:)]

not disagreeing with you entirely, but building 30 factories a day is a lot. in 10 days, that is 300 AC/month capacity and 300K supply.
I don't know exactly where his factory sizes are now, but he has been all along ... this is '43. having more than ~2000 ac/day capacity would not be my plan and I have to believe he is already there or nearly so ....
And really my comments were more directed to the Judy/Jill than fighters (particularly Frank). I've seen a lot of AAR's where Jill/Judy has been over built. They are great air frames for Kamis, BUT:
- the IJN doesn't get as many as IJA
- it is pretty pricey to convert groups to Judy/Jill
- most of the CV groups you do NOT want to convert to kami ... they are quite useful as they are.
bottom line, I've seen a lot of AAR's where people have over expanded/produced those models, and either are left with large pools and/or having to shut off factories.
Anyway, just my thoughts ...



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 1:47:33 AM)

I would say you are right -- normally, but here I believe Japan is flying size 81 Judy and Jill groups![X(]




el lobo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 9:34:29 AM)

Another interesting discussion.

I can see both of your points and I think I am somewhere in-between.

Here is where I am with what I consider important at the moment.

B6N2 Jill Pool - 10 143 (27)
D4Y3 Judy Pool - 11 155(5)

N1K1-J George Pool - 144 174(16)
Ki84 a Frank Pool - 0 113(12)
J2M2 Jack Pool - 127 60(0)
A6M5 Zero Pool - 239 240(0) (Remember the 500+ I had a couple of months ago?)

Nakajima Ha-45 Pool 499 323(32)

I try to keep my expansion to thirty a day, max. This also includes engines. I have been aggressive with the Ha-45 to keep-up with R&D and new Frank production. I have also increased in some other air frames such as Jake and Judy-C, but not much.

I can see from where Pax is coming as I am looking closely at Jack thinking I may have to throttle it back. We will see how many we lose during the next go-around. I can also see his point with Jills. I still have carriers flying Kates and all my LBA TBs are still Kates so it is tempting to go over-board.

The only eighty-one groups I have right now are Mabels and Jeans and are training. [:)] I had some eighty-one Zero groups, divided long ago.



PaxMondo -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 9:51:32 AM)

Numbers you are showing ... Jill/Judy should be fine at 160/mo, unless you get into monthly fights with the KB (very rare) ... frank is WAY too small. That should be ~300. You have plenty of IJN fighter production ... (480/mo) ... slowly convert more IJN LBA fighter groups to Jack/George and slowly increase the Jack/George production ... and keep rampng up the Ha-45 until somewhere north of ~400/mo.



mind_messing -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 12:42:55 PM)

To second Pax, overproducing your late-war fighters is always a good thing. Pools can't be bombed, aircraft factories can.



Lowpe -> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) (6/2/2017 1:44:01 PM)

You have lost the Marianas to a deep invasion in mid 43....this happened to me in late 43. I was auto victory loss in Jan 1, 1945...and had to fight tooth and claw to make it to 45. I lost half of Japan and spent 6 months fighting on Honshu.

This is not the time to limit growth to 30...

You don't list what your Tojo IIc production is or your Nicks or what your Frank R r&d is (I seem to recall it is decent).

But, you face auto victory in 44...

Having had this happen to me, I will go much farther than Pax and say you need minimum 500 plane production of Frank A; and 1000 Ha45 engine production and you need it yesterday.

To get there I would look at plane builds and convert over existing junk plane builds to Frank A, and even change r&d factories over to Frank A (this is speculative depending upon your program but I bet I could pick a few).

Other questions: Have you massed your fleet? What base is General HQ prepped for? Have you massed your Army? Have you concentrated your Air Force?

Unless you have an agreement in place, and since you like playing the game, resize your Judy and Jill and George and Jack Squadrons to 81 and get them preparing for the next invasion.

Here is the nub....for the next big invasion you want to throw at it 2000 planes (which is pretty much every plane you have) in land based air alone. And you want to throw at it 1000+ KB planes. And you want to throw at it the entire IJN -- everything![X(]

and all those planes need to be properly piloted with proper skills.

Don't ever think of turning off Jack, George, Frank, Tojo, Oscar, tony, Zero production. You will need every fighter, fighter bomber and float fighter you can make.

Now, it could be that the Allies don't go for another deep invasion...if that is the case you won't be any worse off for having spent the supply now, rather than waiting to spend the supply.

Ok, this is speculation...if the Allies invade Hokkaido and the island around it (like they did in my game) with 6 Divisions, 1000 ships, deathstar in 60 days or less...can you attack it with 2,000 land based air planes and the entire KB and the entire Navy? Do you have 2+ divisions on the likely invasion beaches with support troops, level 8&9 runways, and forts 5+ and lots of mines?

Now picture this happening at the weakest point along your perimeter. [:(] Sigint gives the Allies almost perfect knowledge of your troop disposition as it is now.

An interesting tactic would be to have 3 IJA divisions land at a likely invasion point (to stay with my example say Hokkaido) and leave it there for a month. This will filter thru to the Allies in SigInt...then pick them up and move them to another likely invasion point...perhaps your weakest one. This might encourage the Allies to pick another invasion spot if they originally targeted Hokkaido, or perhaps be rudely surprised if their invasion spot coincided with your movement. Also, it would give you a 3 division reserve with shipping present.

Remember, Allies won't get sigint on units prepping for Japanese held bases.

I just don't think you understand how bad it will be from your comments.

PS: what plans have you made to counter the Allied use of subs? Sub concentrations led his last invasion...

and remember, the game is supposed to be fun![:)]

















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