RE: The early air war (Full Version)

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Dreamslayer -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 2:45:36 PM)

Can someone provide statistics of losses of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front during June-July 1941? And we can compare it with losses in the game.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 3:00:05 PM)

Problem is players will do ahistorical things from turn 1 and then will expect historical losses will occur [:)]

I once wrote that it would be great to have the full conflict scripted from turn to turn with historical moves and battle results to have a tool to adjust attrition, combat losses, repair rates to history. But we don't have such resource [:(]



Dreamslayer -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 3:12:10 PM)

Ok, but it is possible to compare rates of losses then.
It is nonsense when one side bombing AFs during 1st turn(22-25 June)and got around 6k kills with 17 own losses while other side just looking at this.
I've links for some statistical tables but they are on Russain. So would be interesting to see something similar on English or even German.



Twigster -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 5:00:36 PM)

quote:

Aircraft Losses during Operation Barbarossa

The reported losses on these initial attacks vary, but the 1970s Soviet official history states the loss of 800 aircraft destroyed on the ground and a total loss of 1200 aircraft. This basically crippled the Soviet air force stationed near the front lines. These attacks also inflicted significant damage and chaos on the logistical side. Thus, by day three of operation Barbarossa the Luftwaffe was free to focus mainly on supporting the ground troops, who captured the Russian airfields.(p. 273)

In Mid July 1941 the Soviets admitted to the destruction of almost 4000 (3985) aircraft, whereas the German air force claimed around 6900 (6857) planes destroyed. The kill claims were probably a bit higher than the real ones, but the official war time number probably lower. Yet, most importantly both numbers are substantial.


- Soviet Airforce WW2 Defeat and Recovery



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 5:09:19 PM)

Somewhere in the forums a long time ago I read that early high losses from airfield bombing are WAD because later on Axis airforce can't replicate historical results, so this initial bonus is there to compensate.



chaos45 -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 6:09:28 PM)

I think players are concentrating to much on 41/42 air war at current, as the last patch saw soviets getting beaten badly before the game got further.

The game has always had super heavy soviet air losses and the red airforce does begin to recover in 1943 or at least it did in previous patch iterations. Realistically the Soviet airforce was not that effect until 1943. So if we see games making it to 1943 and the soviet airforce still being powerless then there is a game design issue.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 6:35:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I think players are concentrating to much on 41/42 air war at current, as the last patch saw soviets getting beaten badly before the game got further.

The game has always had super heavy soviet air losses and the red airforce does begin to recover in 1943 or at least it did in previous patch iterations. Realistically the Soviet airforce was not that effect until 1943. So if we see games making it to 1943 and the soviet airforce still being powerless then there is a game design issue.


I think they are saying it (Soviet Airforce) is too effective at the moment from this long forum post :(



Dreamslayer -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 6:38:05 PM)

Twigster, thanks for answer and this link.
But I'm looking for statistics of losses of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front during June-July 1941.
Detailed like these tables if possible.
Examples from articles:
Losses of the Bf-110 on the Eastern Front in 1941 -
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/bf110loss/bf110loss.html
Losses of Ju.87 on the Eastern Front in 1941 - http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/ju87loss/ju87loss1.html

others articles there about Axis airforce - http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/axis.html



chaos45 -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 7:36:53 PM)

Ehh IDK I so far havent seen any games in the early phase 41-42 where the Soviet airforce is overpowered. If we see games where in summer 1942 the soviets have air superiority then I would say we have an issue but I havent seen a single game yet where this has happend.

Historically by mid 1943 the air war was in the Soviets favor. They actually tactically and operationally defeated the Luftwaffe in 1943, and could have had a better impact on Kursk if they hadnt fumbled the initial air operations. Even with the initial fumble the red force still cause the luftwaffe issues and contributed to the battle, at a location the Luftwaffe was focusing maximum effort....pretty well represented in the game from what I have seen....by 43 the Germans can fight with air parity in one location but the soviets pretty much have free reign elsewhere.

The German player really has to keep their defense from getting compromised in 43/44 is the issue because once the Germans are pushed out of the forts thats when soviet air powers starts becoming extremely effective in 43/44.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/21/2017 9:51:11 PM)

Askey IIB p.283, total loss (60%+ damage) on all fronts:
June 542
July 640

p.284, aircraft classified as written off, East Front, June 22nd - December 31st
3767



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:29:22 AM)

quote:

Ehh IDK I so far havent seen any games in the early phase 41-42 where the Soviet airforce is overpowered. If we see games where in summer 1942 the soviets have air superiority then I would say we have an issue but I havent seen a single game yet where this has happend.


I have played 3 games as Soviet into '41, in each of them the Luftwaffe was playing little part in the game by early '42 and I was free to ground bomb and ground support for most ground combats. Typically by T52 I had around 10k planes, Luftwaffe 2k and minor allies largely wiped out.

Tactics were to conduct lots of ground bombing with fighter support to wear out the Luftwaffe fighters and then bomb the airbases. In retrospect I didn't understand why it was working and could probably do a better job now.

I think the issues are:
Too much experience for for air combat when losses are high.
Too much fatigue in some cases (perhaps defensive sorties ?).
Too much gain in morale for being sent to the pool (which is also a bore for the Soviet player).

Would agree that the air war is not that important compared with ground combat, particularly in '41, however a good objective would be to have the ground war and air war working as well as possible.



Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 7:14:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Too much gain in morale for being sent to the pool (which is also a bore for the Soviet player).


HO YES we absolutely need an option to send to reserve all air squadron under a specific morale.
When you are playing the soviet and have 30 air squadron with 19/20 morale, it is so boring to have to click 2/3 for EACH ONE to send them to reserve then return to the air group screen and go on and go on.
Really something have to be done about it.



Twigster -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 7:18:08 AM)

No problem, Dreamslayer.

Speaking for myself, I am getting into the air war aspect of the game as it is something I have relatively little experience in dealing with. I gather this is a pretty long-running debate though. A question: how is the air war question in all of it's aspects (historical, game mechanics, etc.) handled satisfactorily in WitW?



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 7:18:45 AM)

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 7:32:54 AM)

If there is a decision that experience/fatigue/morale should be rebalanced then could it be done in a moderate way, better IMO to move in the right direction than do an overkill.



Dreamslayer -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 10:37:02 AM)

I guess there is need some(significant) reduction of the exp for airgroups who changed his planes for new types (especially for new generation types). E.g. when group changed their I-153 "tactical bombers" to modern IL-2. It is impossible to learn this for 1 or 2 turn.



Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 11:27:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
I guess there is need some(significant) reduction of the exp for airgroups who changed his planes for new types (especially for new generation types). E.g. when group changed their I-153 "tactical bombers" to modern IL-2. It is impossible to learn this for 1 or 2 turn.


It is not possible to do that it would completely trash the automatic management feature of air groups.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 1:25:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.


First and foremost a players Air Strategy is dictating what is happening in the Air. If you fly the German Air Force into the ground you are going to get punished and punished hard. Not to mention the Germans are juggling their Air Force around because of supply which is further impacting the 1941 air results. Imo stop building Rome in one day syndrome with the German Air Force and you will do better.

The National Morale Morvael isn't where the problem began to be honest. Although I think a morale bonus recovery should be based on "experience" and not a generic number. To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions. By initiating "NIGHT" missions for every plane the Germans "further" fatigue their fighters out by setting every plane to both night and day missions. When NIGHT missions are coupled with an aggressive German air strategy it is a recipe for disaster if the Germans don't control the Air War with Finesse. Again I'm not knocking on anyone's play style, I'm just saying that the Soviet can take advantage of this. (On top of this I believe that night missions should cause double to triple the fatigue at a minimum)

On top of every single aircraft being able to fly night missions, which imho should NOT be allowed unless NB's & minimal bombers and then in "VERY" limited numbers with "VERY" minimal damage. To be honest some of the damage I have seen in games makes baby Jesus cry on the damage results.

Before "experimenting" with the morale/experience/fatigue changes I implore you to look at the players air strategy. Since certain Air strategies are not as conducive as other air strategies. Look at the night rules since to me these numbers are out of whack with reality.




chaos45 -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:22:20 PM)

you could honestly probably just remove night air operations from the game aside from supply/fuel/troop transport missions.

As basically for both sides on the eastern front they were just nuisance missions in all reality. I cant think of any major air operations at night on the eastern front that provided a massive success or edge.

Also I completely agree alot is the German players air strategy. If you fly the luftwaffe all the time you will wear it down....also air base placement is huge in the air war.



Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:29:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
air base placement is huge in the air war.


+1 many times over

On night bombing missions, they can rarely get anything more than 1% damage. But there are certain factories where 1% damage stops expansion which leads to huge losses in output. So for them night bombing to just get that 1% can have a huge impact and be worth it.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:34:09 PM)

Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:36:56 PM)

Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.



Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:41:13 PM)

double post



Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:50:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?


AFAIK none at all - although the Soviet air forces were deployed in the rear to defend their industry at all times as were Axis air forces. So there was never a free run.

The fuhrer directive for Barbarossa did explicitly say the 1941 campaign would end with the Luftwaffe bombing the remaining industry that the army had not reached, so it would certainly have been historical if the Axis had had more success in 1941. Although as the Axis bombers were always more geared to ground support, they never had a heavy bomber for instance, you could argue it would not be anything like the western bombing effort. The battle of Britain is the closest analogy. However the large integrated Soviet factories were bigger targets to hit. You did not have to hit the final assembly area, only any upstream component manufacture co-located with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.


I think the expansion model does need to be looked at with regards to bombing. If bombing only applied to general industry, not named factories, or if bombing could only select a city but which factories you hit in it were random, this issue would not arise or would matter less. How easy that is to change in WitE1 or 2 is another question of course.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:56:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?



Look for the bombing of "Gorki". That is the one that I know that the Germans conducted during 41-43. It is an interesting read.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 3:58:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.


Yes, they should imho



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?


AFAIK none at all - although the Soviet air forces were deployed in the rear to defend their industry at all times as were Axis air forces. So there was never a free run.

The fuhrer directive for Barbarossa did explicitly say the 1941 campaign would end with the Luftwaffe bombing the remaining industry that the army had not reached, so it would certainly have been historical if the Axis had had more success in 1941. Although as the Axis bombers were always more geared to ground support, they never had a heavy bomber for instance, you could argue it would not be anything like the western bombing effort. The battle of Britain is the closest analogy. However the large integrated Soviet factories were bigger targets to hit. You did not have to hit the final assembly area, only any upstream component manufacture co-located with it.




Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.



Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:07:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.


Very interesting just from google search on the subject. I had been wholely unaware of any industrial bombing on the Eastern front until now. Very interesting that the bombing raids were targeting a "named" factory and not just an area.

The Axis did not pursue this constantly. But that is not to say doing so would be ahistorical - they could have if they wanted to. There were no technological or other barriers. They just chose to use their air forces more tactically. I think it is a reasonable choice for a wargame to make of "what if" they had chosen to use their air forces more to target industry rather than tactically.

I suspect as there has been little use previously in the game of this option there is no good calibration of whether this is over or under powered though.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:15:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.


Very interesting just from google search on the subject. I had been wholely unaware of any industrial bombing on the Eastern front until now. Very interesting that the bombing raids were targeting a "named" factory and not just an area.

The Axis did not pursue this constantly. But that is not to say doing so would be ahistorical - they could have if they wanted to. There were no technological or other barriers. They just chose to use their air forces more tactically. I think it is a reasonable choice for a wargame to make of "what if" they had chosen to use their air forces more to target industry rather than tactically.

I suspect as there has been little use previously in the game of this option there is no good calibration of whether this is over or under powered though.



Yes, correct. The Germans can defiantly do it & should still be able to do so. I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing. If you read further into the history of Gorky bombing the measures that the Soviets employed (Germans too in Germany) of camouflaging buildings (by painting them to look like residential from the air) and smoke screens and a whole host of other things such as building a whole area to look like the factories. They would then turn on the lights at these false areas and off at the the real factories.




Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:30:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.


Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE? I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.



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