RE: The early air war (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:44:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77
But as I've previously stated, the WitE air war system isn't top notch, and it's easier to "play against the system" with Soviet Air Force, since they just have more aircraft available.





I feel this comment by Nix77 is true, don't get me Wong I love the game. But at this time in the game I believe the best measure would be to have a house rule of "no" airfield bombing or very limited Airfield bombing (i.e. one or two airfield bombings per section of the map (North, Center, South). In this fashion the delimiting factor alone takes care of the mass raids and an overzealous Soviet Air Campaign to gain exp.


Even extend this house rule to only a few CAP missions per section of the map too. Just my 2 cents



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:48:09 PM)

Looks like we are beginning to get some consensus here.
So in general the combat values for air-to-air and ground bombing are mostly working out well.
There is a problem with an aggressive soviet attack on the Luftwaffe, which would probably extend into the later war. There are questions (in no particular order) on:
1. Experience rising too fast for kamikazee attacks.
2. Morale recovering too quickly on reserve.
3. Axis fighter fatigue.
4. Night bombing
5. Air base bombing

These can all be adjusted, the question is which ones and by how much. My feeling would be:
1. Definitely adjust the algorithm (a little) so that air losses have more effect
2. Probably reduce this from 5 down to about 3.
3. Needs tweaking somehow. Possibly a little less fatigue for defensive missions. Or adjust the balance so there is more fatigue for distance flown and less for combat.
4. Would suggest reducing where detection level is not high.
5. Possibly reduce losses from bombing. In WITW airbase bombing is less effective.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:48:53 PM)

Would be great if you could find the link.

Btw. is there such a thing as national morale for the air force? If there were a national morale/experience, it would become more and more difficult to gain extra morale/exp. for air groups if they are above the NM?

Maybe morvael or Dennis know what this stat you can find in the editor means?: [image]https://s20.postimg.org/agg6uwy3x/Nationale_Pilotenmoral.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:56:24 PM)

the other thing the german player can do is concentrate air power to fewer air bases.....that way at most each airbase can only be attacked 2x per turn.....this then can allow for german concentration of flak to defend those air fields.

Also keeping German fighter airfields at distance from the frontline so the soviet player cant bring all their fighters in range to support bomber raids on axis airbases....

is alot of tactics that can be used by both sides....most of the game is learning and adjusting to the opposing players tactics to get best use of your forces just like historical.

I dont really understand this myth of abject soviet air power....as even with air superiority in late 43/44 I still found the germans able to slow/grind down soviet air power if you over use it. Esp when in the play thru I did he decided to concentrate alot of german flak where he thought I would attack, this alone quickly reduced soviet bomber effectiveness, but was almost to little to late by the time the flak was concentrated....it did however greatly reduce soviet bombing effectiveness and effectively gutted my bomber groups via damage and fatigue that I could only do 1-2 turns of max effort before the red airforce was trashed and had to rest for a week.

Again its all on players tactics in the air war IMO. The new rules have unlocked the potential for the Germans to use up airpower way more and faster than older patches.....and I think German players now have a tendency to abuse the german airpower heavily in 41 as a result. As you used to only be able to do a couple air strikes per air army period.....and now its 2 per hex, so effectively the amount of air power useage is massively higher than the older patches.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 2:18:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45


Again its all on players tactics in the air war IMO. The new rules have unlocked the potential for the Germans to use up airpower way more and faster than older patches.....and I think German players now have a tendency to abuse the german airpower heavily in 41 as a result. As you used to only be able to do a couple air strikes per air army period.....and now its 2 per hex, so effectively the amount of air power useage is massively higher than the older patches.



Yes, a lot of "Player Air Generals" are using last year air strategy(i.e. Generals fighting with the last wars tactics) and not coming up with new tactics to offset what is happening.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 2:27:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45


Again its all on players tactics in the air war IMO. The new rules have unlocked the potential for the Germans to use up airpower way more and faster than older patches.....and I think German players now have a tendency to abuse the german airpower heavily in 41 as a result. As you used to only be able to do a couple air strikes per air army period.....and now its 2 per hex, so effectively the amount of air power useage is massively higher than the older patches.



Yes, a lot of "Player Air Generals" are using last year air strategy(i.e. Generals fighting with the last wars tactics) and not coming up with new tactics to offset what is happening.


I think the first thing to make sure of is if it isn't just the persons air strategy that is the problem on how they are handling their Air Force.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 2:37:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Would be great if you could find the link.

Btw. is there such a thing as national morale for the air force? If there were a national morale/experience, it would become more and more difficult to gain extra morale/exp. for air groups if they are above the NM?

Maybe morvael or Dennis know what this stat you can find in the editor means?: [image]https://s20.postimg.org/agg6uwy3x/Nationale_Pilotenmoral.jpg[/image]



We're thinking about the same lines. For now morale for air units is not linked to national morale, only to the range of 10-99. For new units it's equal to 1/3 of game morale level setting (usually 33).
I intend to limit air group morale to 0.25-1.25 of national morale in the next patch.
The value in the editor is used only at scenario start (actually once you enter air group tab in the editor at least once before saving scenario) to init air group morale quality. Later it's not used.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 2:38:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
As you used to only be able to do a couple air strikes per air army period.....and now its 2 per hex, so effectively the amount of air power useage is massively higher than the older patches.


What do you mean? Previously there were no limits, so I think 2 per hex is an improvement.
I think more active airforce may stem from fixing bugs in checking which groups can fly via command chain, which was broken earlier.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:02:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
As you used to only be able to do a couple air strikes per air army period.....and now its 2 per hex, so effectively the amount of air power useage is massively higher than the older patches.


What do you mean? Previously there were no limits, so I think 2 per hex is an improvement.
I think more active airforce may stem from fixing bugs in checking which groups can fly via command chain, which was broken earlier.


was no limit in the beginning, then went to 3 per hex then to the current 2 per hex



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:17:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Would be great if you could find the link.

Btw. is there such a thing as national morale for the air force? If there were a national morale/experience, it would become more and more difficult to gain extra morale/exp. for air groups if they are above the NM?

Maybe morvael or Dennis know what this stat you can find in the editor means?: [image]https://s20.postimg.org/agg6uwy3x/Nationale_Pilotenmoral.jpg[/image]



We're thinking about the same lines. For now morale for air units is not linked to national morale, only to the range of 10-99. For new units it's equal to 1/3 of game morale level setting (usually 33).
I intend to limit air group morale to 0.25-1.25 of national morale in the next patch.
The value in the editor is used only at scenario start (actually once you enter air group tab in the editor at least once before saving scenario) to init air group morale quality. Later it's not used.


Thank you for the explanations. My idea differs from you in the point that mine has no hardcap, but the morale/experience gain becomes more and more difficult the higher you are above the national air morale.
But your idea also has its merits. I am a bit worried that the late war German air force might get too weak from this change but I have not much late war experience so others are better suited to comment on this.
But whatever change will be done, I believe it should be a small and incremental one, because the balance can tip into the other extreme quite easily.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:26:53 PM)

Just like it happens for ground units? I guess it would be possible to copy this formula for air group use.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:28:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Would be great if you could find the link.

Btw. is there such a thing as national morale for the air force? If there were a national morale/experience, it would become more and more difficult to gain extra morale/exp. for air groups if they are above the NM?

Maybe morvael or Dennis know what this stat you can find in the editor means?: [image]https://s20.postimg.org/agg6uwy3x/Nationale_Pilotenmoral.jpg[/image]



We're thinking about the same lines. For now morale for air units is not linked to national morale, only to the range of 10-99. For new units it's equal to 1/3 of game morale level setting (usually 33).
I intend to limit air group morale to 0.25-1.25 of national morale in the next patch.
The value in the editor is used only at scenario start (actually once you enter air group tab in the editor at least once before saving scenario) to init air group morale quality. Later it's not used.


Thank you for the explanations. My idea differs from you in the point that mine has no hardcap, but the morale/experience gain becomes more and more difficult the higher you are above the national air morale.
But your idea also has its merits. I am a bit worried that the late war German air force might get too weak from this change but I have not much late war experience so others are better suited to comment on this.
But whatever change will be done, I believe it should be a small and incremental one, because the balance can tip into the other extreme quite easily.


Also in consideration is the time factor in this equation. Will that also be hard coded into this or will each side have to work to improve?



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:39:34 PM)

Time factor? Please explain? National morale follows a known pattern.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:40:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Would be great if you could find the link.




here is the link EwaldvonKleist. (I have even further refined that Strat for the Germans but need to put it to the test one day i.e. the % to fly should be lower now)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4091410



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:46:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Time factor? Please explain? National morale follows a known pattern.


Ok, so the known pattern has the time factor already worked in for the morale changes. Blonde moment as always for me.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 3:52:23 PM)

Thinking about using axis elite bonsu for German (until training program collapse in late 1944, could this be tied to Rumanian surrender?) and Finnish air groups, as well as Soviet elite for Guards groups. Plus use formula from land units to slow down excessive growth and decline.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 4:03:21 PM)

quote:

Just like it happens for ground units? I guess it would be possible to copy this formula for air group use.

Yes, my idea was to apply the ground units formula. It might also be a good idea to have a special air NM for each side so you are not tied to the ground NM for balancing purposes.

quote:

Thinking about using axis elite bonsu for German (until training program collapse in late 1944, could this be tied to Rumanian surrender?) and Finnish air groups, as well as Soviet elite for Guards groups. Plus use formula from land units to slow down excessive growth and decline.

Like this idea. In addition, the Guards air groups finally would have a purpose.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 4:07:14 PM)

@morvael: I should add that it must not be forgotten that the air experience is not tied to the air morale like for ground units, so you must not forget to model the experience gain as well with the new formula


@HLYA: Thanks



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 1:38:26 PM)

Now what about the destruction of so many Russian planes on the first turn to be addressed? The numbers I have seen(in AAR's and my own games) are in excess of 5,000 aircraft and I saw one over 5,600. Seems a bit overkill when the real numbers are a great deal less than those from history for the first couple of days of the war.

Maybe allow only the bombing of Airfields within X of the borders. And/Or no bombing of Airbases in the Romanian area. Not to mention did the Germans really bomb the airbases along the Romanian border? A history buff could fill us in on that one.



Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 1:51:08 PM)

The production of soviet planes is so high. Is it really important how many (obsolete) planes are destroyed on turn one ?

I love the new air model linked to national morale that seems to emerge from this thread.

Of course i hope everybody understand that it is quite a nerf of the luftwaffe in the late years.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 1:58:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

The production of soviet planes is so high. Is it really important how many (obsolete) planes are destroyed on turn one ?

I love a the new air model linked to national morale that seems to emerge from this thread.

Of course i hope everybody understand that it is quite a nerf of the luftwaffe in the late years.


It will become apparent in due time ;-). But I'm afraid by that time WITE 2.0 will be close upon us.



Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 2:49:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
The production of soviet planes is so high. Is it really important how many (obsolete) planes are destroyed on turn one ?


No - and if destroying the many bad planes near the front distracts you from the fewer good planes further in the rear it is actually a bad thing for the Axis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
I love the new air model linked to national morale that seems to emerge from this thread.
Of course i hope everybody understand that it is quite a nerf of the luftwaffe in the late years.


Only followed the formula slightly. But I assume it should eventually be the national morale + elite bonus as the analogue to ground units. The Luftwaffe always had the greater number of party members and was described as better displaying "national socialist fervour" than the army - so I hope the formula will be tweaked to reflect they were the last fanatics rather than the collapse in morale of the ordinary rank and file soldier.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 2:53:17 PM)

Politics aside I think that quality of LW plummeted once they couldn't train their pilots properly because of lack of fuel, fanatics or not, new pilots had only rudimentary skills when going to the front.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 2:54:29 PM)

Already testing new morale rules. Have added "can fly" setting, so maybe you won't have to use night missions for that, and it will be possible to restrict changes in night mission mode to one per turn.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 7:27:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Already testing new morale rules. Have added "can fly" setting, so maybe you won't have to use night missions for that, and it will be possible to restrict changes in night mission mode to one per turn.


When is the estimated date on having this patch out? I think I may play a game as Germany when it does.



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 8:15:28 PM)

Have been doing some experimenting with air settings, have two games on the go with soviets using aggressive air tactics in both. The question for Axis is, how to defend against:
Massed ground bombing causing high fatigue for the Luftwaffe fighters.
Followed by air base bombing which will cause lots of operational losses even if the bombers don't get through.

If the intercept value/percentage to fly is too high then the fighters get fatigued even quicker.
If the intercept value/percentage to fly is too low then you get results like below, not enough fighters for normal air base defense let alone the fatigue factor.

The best defense I can find is a combination of the following:
Default settings for fighter intercept/percentage to fly (100% & 50%).
Keep fighter fatigue low in Axis turn.
Keep the air bases out of soviet fighter range, i.e. 20 hexes from the front line.
Have a second line of defense (usually 110s) that are so far back that they will cover the air bases but not the front line, and so are harder to get fatigued.
Good AA with HQs, stacked with air bases.



[image]local://upfiles/52296/7CC204F7BCD34966AD12F9A0EE505E6C.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 8:47:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Have been doing some experimenting with air settings, have two games on the go with soviets using aggressive air tactics in both. The question for Axis is, how to defend against:
Massed ground bombing causing high fatigue for the Luftwaffe fighters.
Followed by air base bombing which will cause lots of operational losses even if the bombers don't get through.

If the intercept value/percentage to fly is too high then the fighters get fatigued even quicker.
If the intercept value/percentage to fly is too low then you get results like below, not enough fighters for normal air base defense let alone the fatigue factor.

The best defense I can find is a combination of the following:
Default settings for fighter intercept/percentage to fly (100% & 50%).
Keep fighter fatigue low in Axis turn.
Keep the air bases out of soviet fighter range, i.e. 20 hexes from the front line.
Have a second line of defense (usually 110s) that are so far back that they will cover the air bases but not the front line, and so are harder to get fatigued.
Good AA with HQs, stacked with air bases.



[image]local://upfiles/52296/7CC204F7BCD34966AD12F9A0EE505E6C.jpg[/image]


IMHO stop flying 109's in night missions(set them to day mode) since all the screen shots here are for night bombing(your loses are more than likely caused by night flying in general). Fly the 110's for night missions only (if you fly any night missions at all. May be worth it not to fly night missions or a very few squadrons of 110's to fly nights) & crank the intercept up to 200% minimum or more on the 110's and set percentage to fly ~35-55% at the end of your turn. 42%-45% has been the sweet spot when the planes aren't fatigued (higher the number the less sorties they will fly if the Soviets keep coming) and when they are higher fatigued I drop them down to 35% or lower. I'm sure you already know all of this but give it a try.

You should be able to set up a scenerio to try it out before actually trying it in a live game. Good luck.





Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 8:58:37 PM)

IL-4 production is only 15 per turn and the soviet need also them to supply partisan. I'am not sūre it is a good idea to loose a lot of them for the soviet.

Still, the numbers of plane destroyed on ground from night raid on airfield are impressive.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 9:59:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

IL-4 production is only 15 per turn and the soviet need also them to supply partisan. I'am not sūre it is a good idea to loose a lot of them for the soviet.

Still, the numbers of plane destroyed on ground from night raid on airfield are impressive.


That is a night raid. That is the only way possible that the Germans are loosing so many fighters. A daylight raid those bombers would have been torn to shreds. Unless, the Germans fatigue is extremely high but Tyronec is too smart to have that happen. So I'm 100% sure that was a night raid. I'm pretty sure these are operational loses do to flying at night, but need verification.





HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/25/2017 10:00:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

IL-4 production is only 15 per turn and the soviet need also them to supply partisan. I'am not sūre it is a good idea to loose a lot of them for the soviet.

Still, the numbers of plane destroyed on ground from night raid on airfield are impressive.


That is a night raid. That is the only way possible that the Germans are loosing so many fighters. A daylight raid those bombers would have been torn to sherds. Unless, the Germans fatigue is extremely high but Tyronec is too smart to have that happen. So I'm 100% sure that was a night raid.






Plus I'm sure those aren't destroyed by the Russian bombers either. If we can get confirmation of this that would be great.



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