RE: The early air war (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:31:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.

\
Maybe something more like (100 - morale) (rnd(20) * K (some decimal constant)
Thus the higher the morale the less effect of getting out from the front lines but the lower the morale the more effect ...with a bit of randomness a really good turn or a really bad turn the notorious Gary Grisby die roll!



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:39:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.


Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.



I'm referencing the night bombing of Airbases. I believe you may be referring to factories. I know in my last game played I had a night bombing of an airbase killing 25 Fighters in one attack. Maybe that was a one off but most of the time can easily get 5~15 aircraft airfield bombing. Which could also be attributed to Germans flying fatigued at night.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 4:41:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.


Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.



I'm referencing the night bombing of Airbases. I believe you may be referring to factories. I know in my last game played I had a night bombing of an airbase killing 25 Fighters in one attack. Maybe that was a one off but most of the time can easily get 5~15 aircraft airfield bombing. Which could also be attributed to Germans flying fatigued at night.


I think we need more data from all that are playing to get a good perspective to be honest.



Twigster -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 5:31:23 PM)

I can check at my next turn. [8D]



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:00:32 PM)

quote:

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?

If your opponent does not have any fighters set to Night then serious damage can be done to air bases with night bombing. Does anyone know how the game works with escorted bombers vs fighters at night (would expect less kills for the number of planes involved and same amount of fatigue) ?

Would concur that night bombing is too effective, and the U2VSs are way too powerful. Game works fine if there is Axis fighter cover but if the fighters are cleared away and the U2s can mass bomb at daytime they are better than some LBs.

quote:

To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

I disagree with this, the tactic of fatiguing the Axis fighters to death works without night missions.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:18:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec



quote:

To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

I disagree with this, the tactic of fatiguing the Axis fighters to death works without night missions.


Yes, it is true you can do so with the incorrect settings or being super aggressive. But my point in my saying is that the problem was exacerbated more by the "addition" of night missions being added to the German fighters list of things to do.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:21:47 PM)

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:23:22 PM)

Nobody forces you to use Both settings for German fighters :-)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:24:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.


You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:25:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.


You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.


Also the loses for night flying used to be more severe if I remember correctly. Or at least it seemed so to me.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:26:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Nobody forces you to use Both settings for German fighters :-)


correct



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:30:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.


The problem was the other player could switch his entire force to night mode, bomb at will without risk of interception and switch back to daily mode for the rest of the turn (and for enemy turn) to get GS. BOTH settings was invented to allow the passive player to intercept both kinds of missions when he is not in control of his airforce during enemy turn.

Perhaps it would better to limit night settings change to one per turn, that way one would have to choose.

Anyway, as you can ignore BOTH settings, you can play as if it was never there.



morvael -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:32:16 PM)

What if changing this value would be possible for groups with 0% flown and set them to 100% flown? That way you would need full turn to adjust to new mode.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 6:33:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.


The problem was the other player could switch his entire force to night mode, bomb at will without risk of interception and switch back to daily mode for the rest of the turn (and for enemy turn) to get GS. BOTH settings was invented to allow the passive player to intercept both kinds of missions when he is not in control of his airforce during enemy turn.

Perhaps it would better to limit night settings change to one per turn, that way one would have to choose.

Anyway, as you can ignore BOTH settings, you can play as if it was never there.


Lets see what others say from their games.



Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/22/2017 8:05:40 PM)

My first thought of the subjet is that i'am not sūre the air setting is working as intended.

Because i sometimes tried to change settings for ground bombing (especially escort %) and i do not see what i'am expecting to see.
Maybe any air setting change is taken into account only after the end of a turn ?




Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 10:45:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

My first thought of the subjet is that i'am not sūre the air setting is working as intended.

Because i sometimes tried to change settings for ground bombing (especially escort %) and i do not see what i'am expecting to see.
Maybe any air setting change is taken into account only after the end of a turn ?


Very often I set the escort to 300% and then switch fighters to nights (for a day mission) until I get the escort I want. So at least in some sense I find the unmanipulated air doctrine to be awkward or inaccurate. Certainly there does not seem to be much consistency in how many escorts fly, and that is comparing like for like (same fighters in same airbases with same fuel levels etc.) So if that part of air doctrine is working as intended, the intentions are very difficult for users such as myself to discern.



Crackaces -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 1:10:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

My first thought of the subjet is that i'am not sūre the air setting is working as intended.

Because i sometimes tried to change settings for ground bombing (especially escort %) and i do not see what i'am expecting to see.
Maybe any air setting change is taken into account only after the end of a turn ?


Very often I set the escort to 300% and then switch fighters to nights (for a day mission) until I get the escort I want. So at least in some sense I find the unmanipulated air doctrine to be awkward or inaccurate. Certainly there does not seem to be much consistency in how many escorts fly, and that is comparing like for like (same fighters in same airbases with same fuel levels etc.) So if that part of air doctrine is working as intended, the intentions are very difficult for users such as myself to discern.



In this case nights is a way of excluding aircraft from flying.. .
The other problem is the 33% constraint on attacking airbases and a constraint how many aircraft groups show up in the manual allocation list ...combine those two constrIants and moving groups into night helps manage the groups you want to fly



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 6:48:33 PM)

quote:

Perhaps it would better to limit night settings change to one per turn, that way one would have to choose.

As long as there is separate fly/no fly setting, limiting the night missions to be set on/off to the beginning of the turn aka the time before an airgroup has flown, this destroys the only possibility of the player to manage which airgroup flies and which one does not. I also don't consider this to be historical in any way.





Telemecus -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 6:50:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
As long as there is separate fly/no fly setting


+1

at the moment it is daft we have to use the night setting as a de facto no fly setting for day missions



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 8:12:52 PM)

@HLYA: If I recall correctly, you have been the only real advocate against Dinglirs position stated in the first thread. You repeatedly commented that the German fighter arm can resist a very optimized Soviet air strategy, but if I haven't overread anything, you never gave any details how to do this while at the same time maintaining some sort of support for the ground troops. As you have been somewhat offended by a similiar comment of Tyronec on his AAR, please note that there is no ill will here. If I sound rude, its because Germans always sound rude, at least thats the cliche. I also judge in no way that you don't like to publish aspects of your strategy which took you a lot of time to figure out, or to hand over the anti-strategy defeating exactly your one. Its 100% fine to act so.

This being said, only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing.

In addition, I have a question to make sure I understand your position: Do you believe, that the combined axis fighter arm is able to protect bombers flying ground bombing and ground support for one schwerpunkt per theatre (north, center south), protect the concentrated panzer blob from soviet ground bombing, while at the same time preserving its own strength and while protecting the fighter and bomber bases from soviet airfield bombing. All this assuming a skilled soviet player willing to micromanage its forces and using the tricks he has to his disposal.

Is this what you mean with
quote:

So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.
?

I ask this because this is IMO what the German airforce should be capable of in 1941 and to lesser extent in 1942.

My personal opinion is that the soviet airforce is slightly overpowered, according to my definition of the mission profile the axis air force should be able to perform assuming optimized play on both sides, but I agree with you HLYA that the Germans have many means and tricks to protect the air force which are sometimes not used, giving the impression of an overly imbalanced air war. The question is whether this is enough vs. a good russian player.

Thanks for reading.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 10:35:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: If I recall correctly, you have been the only real advocate against Dinglirs position stated in the first thread. You repeatedly commented that the German fighter arm can resist a very optimized Soviet air strategy, but if I haven't overread anything, you never gave any details how to do this while at the same time maintaining some sort of support for the ground troops. As you have been somewhat offended by a similiar comment of Tyronec on his AAR, please note that there is no ill will here. If I sound rude, its because Germans always sound rude, at least thats the cliche. I also judge in no way that you don't like to publish aspects of your strategy which took you a lot of time to figure out, or to hand over the anti-strategy defeating exactly your one. Its 100% fine to act so.

This being said, only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing.

In addition, I have a question to make sure I understand your position: Do you believe, that the combined axis fighter arm is able to protect bombers flying ground bombing and ground support for one schwerpunkt per theatre (north, center south), protect the concentrated panzer blob from soviet ground bombing, while at the same time preserving its own strength and while protecting the fighter and bomber bases from soviet airfield bombing. All this assuming a skilled soviet player willing to micromanage its forces and using the tricks he has to his disposal.

Is this what you mean with
quote:

So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.
?

I ask this because this is IMO what the German airforce should be capable of in 1941 and to lesser extent in 1942.

My personal opinion is that the soviet airforce is slightly overpowered, according to my definition of the mission profile the axis air force should be able to perform assuming optimized play on both sides, but I agree with you HLYA that the Germans have many means and tricks to protect the air force which are sometimes not used, giving the impression of an overly imbalanced air war. The question is whether this is enough vs. a good russian player.

Thanks for reading.



The last time something like this came up I ended up jumping in too deep to prove it. I'm not doing that again. So everyone can cling to their conclusions and I will stick with mine. I only have my games which I have played as Germany and my "opinions" from those games with the German AirForce. I have also drawn my conclusions from my Soviet play which are my "opinions". So as you elegantly said, "only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing" As such I'm not going to be able convince anyone of anything since I only have my opinions from my "own" skill using the German Air Force and Soviet Air Force. So maybe I'm just flat wrong in my conclusion & everyone else is correct, I don't think so since I believe too many Germans are over utilizing the German Air Force first and foremost.

Let me give a few examples here on the over utilization of the German Air Force. But 1st my position of the German Airforce is this, "To protect the integrity of the German Fighter Airforce as long as possible into the later war years first and foremost". Everything else is secondary. Now back to the over utilization I see Germans flying ground support, in the AAR's, where air support is not needed in a battle hex(why fly the support when you don't need it) Or they are flying fighter cover with those bombers when no Soviet interceptors are flying to that hex(why fly the fighters?) Or launching "numerous" CAP missions to shoot down Soviet fighters(this only gives the Soviet exp/morale and fatigues the Germans).

That is all the time I have to spend on this at the moment. You can ask any question you like but remember it is only my "opinion" ;-)













HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/23/2017 10:37:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: If I recall correctly, you have been the only real advocate against Dinglirs position stated in the first thread. You repeatedly commented that the German fighter arm can resist a very optimized Soviet air strategy, but if I haven't overread anything, you never gave any details how to do this while at the same time maintaining some sort of support for the ground troops. As you have been somewhat offended by a similiar comment of Tyronec on his AAR, please note that there is no ill will here. If I sound rude, its because Germans always sound rude, at least thats the cliche. I also judge in no way that you don't like to publish aspects of your strategy which took you a lot of time to figure out, or to hand over the anti-strategy defeating exactly your one. Its 100% fine to act so.

This being said, only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing.

In addition, I have a question to make sure I understand your position: Do you believe, that the combined axis fighter arm is able to protect bombers flying ground bombing and ground support for one schwerpunkt per theatre (north, center south), protect the concentrated panzer blob from soviet ground bombing, while at the same time preserving its own strength and while protecting the fighter and bomber bases from soviet airfield bombing. All this assuming a skilled soviet player willing to micromanage its forces and using the tricks he has to his disposal.

Is this what you mean with
quote:

So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.
?

I ask this because this is IMO what the German airforce should be capable of in 1941 and to lesser extent in 1942.

My personal opinion is that the soviet airforce is slightly overpowered, according to my definition of the mission profile the axis air force should be able to perform assuming optimized play on both sides, but I agree with you HLYA that the Germans have many means and tricks to protect the air force which are sometimes not used, giving the impression of an overly imbalanced air war. The question is whether this is enough vs. a good russian player.

Thanks for reading.



The last time something like this came up I ended up jumping in too deep to prove it. I'm not doing that again. So everyone can cling to their conclusions and I will stick with mine. I only have my games which I have played as Germany and my "opinions" from those games with the German AirForce. I have also drawn my conclusions from my Soviet play which are my "opinions". So as you elegantly said, "only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing" As such I'm not going to be able convince anyone of anything since I only have my opinions from my "own" skill using the German Air Force and Soviet Air Force. So maybe I'm just flat wrong in my conclusion & everyone else is correct, I don't think so since I believe too many Germans are over utilizing the German Air Force first and foremost.

Let me give a few examples here on the over utilization of the German Air Force. But 1st my position of the German Airforce is this, "To protect the integrity of the German Fighter Airforce as long as possible into the later war years first and foremost". Everything else is secondary. Now back to the over utilization I see Germans flying ground support, in the AAR's, where air support is not needed in a battle hex(why fly the support when you don't need it) Or they are flying fighter cover with those bombers when no Soviet interceptors are flying to that hex(why fly the fighters?) Or launching "numerous" CAP missions to shoot down Soviet fighters(this only gives the Soviet exp/morale and fatigues the Germans).

That is all the time I have to spend on this at the moment. You can ask any question you like but remember it is only my "opinion" ;-)













There is more but I just don't have the time at the moment. Sorry



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 8:19:01 AM)

Regarding night missions, have checked with my opponent Grognard and he has not been flying night bombing so with regards to my post about fatigue/experience/morale it is not relevant.

There is an issue with night bombing being too effective and a possible exploit where the Soviets could fatigue Axis fighters by night bombing and Axis need to provide some CAP for their airfields. As soviets I have not tried bombing ground units to cause fighter fatigue but I have bombed air bases and it is effective.
A suggestion to address this is would be to have a severe penalty on night bombing relative to the detection level, so that it is only effective in hexes adjacent to a ground unit. That way no one would need to fly any night CAP which it probably realistic for most of WITE. And the U2VSs would be working as intended.




Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 9:23:28 AM)

I'am reading this thread and i have sometimes the impression that i'am not playing the same game.

In my campaign who is in summer 1943 currently, i'am sending each week around 150 modern fighter and 100 IL2 against CAP of 10/20 german fighter, loosing most of the time 10 fighters and 20 IL-2 while killing maybe one german fighters, if i'am lucky.
Also, the german AA murder me killing 5/10 planes each raid while i have issue to identify when mine manage to kill a single german plane.

It is funny. I would really advocate a nerf of german fighters and a boost of soviet AA [:'(]

I love the german AA, really [:'(]
[image]https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/865595stel107tambov.jpg[/image]




Stelteck -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 9:29:19 AM)

The luftwaffe seems to hold quite fine [:D]

[image]https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/713688stel100baku.jpg[/image]

Whatever i do not pretend to be a good soviet air force manager. But conclusion done for a few turns at the start of the campaign are maybe too quick. [;)]



tyronec -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 10:37:02 AM)

quote:

I'am reading this thread and i have sometimes the impression that i'am not playing the same game.


The issue only shows up if the Soviet player uses specific tactics (maybe it is to your credit that you are not using them):
Concentrate the air force where they outnumber the Luftwaffe several times over.
Do loads of ground bombing using lots of fighters and preferably expendable bombers, to fatigue the Axis fighters.
Then bomb their airbases with the good stuff.
Then do free bombing to support the ground campaign (well, not AA free).



Nix77 -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 11:13:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Now back to the over utilization I see Germans flying ground support, in the AAR's, where air support is not needed in a battle hex(why fly the support when you don't need it)


This is a good point, and I'm sure many players (me included) forget to turn ground support off in trivial battles due to different reasons (forgetting, ignorance, not caring etc.)

I kind of agree with HLYA, with correct precautions the Luftwaffe can perform well in '41 (not sure about '42?). But as I've previously stated, the WitE air war system isn't top notch, and it's easier to "play against the system" with Soviet Air Force, since they just have more aircraft available.

Since there are no orders to "conserve fuel/ammo", "engage only if...", etc. the Soviet side can just swamp down Luftwaffe with superior numbers (but with inferior aircraft but it doesn't matter really).

To my understanding in WitW air war system you can allocate separate resources to attack and defend, and decide how the air forces act and react on your turn and also plan things more accurately for the opponent's turn. In WitE, the opponents turn is really a gray area where you have little control to how your air forces will react.

This is where all the gamey stuff happens, like swarms of Polikarpovs "clearing the area" (fatigueing the LW) with suicide missions for the huge lumbering old bombers to have a clear way to the LW airfields. That's of course not 100% accurate depiction of what's happening in the game but I'm guessing all the wild stuff that's happening in the air war balance is due to the system being unable to offer enough control for the player.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:19:24 PM)

@HLYA: Thank you for your reply and I agree with your points about over utilisation of the German fighter arm. I would also add to your list of things the axis player has to pay attention to the items "never move a fighter group by moving its base, but only by air transfer" and "stack the fighter bases with a crazy amount of mixed and heavy (not light) LW flak bataillions" and "make sure that for every one of your air force blobs has at least 150 ready fighters/fighter bombers at the end of your turn".

A well protected fighter base is very hard to successfully bomb, here is a screenshot from one of my games where my opponent tried this:
[image]https://s20.postimg.org/k028jp63h/T8_C.jpg[/image]
(yes the soviet set up wasn't optimal but still)

But my point still stands that if the Axis player tries to get on top of some well chosen ground support some protection from soviet spam bombing for his panzer balls, the soviet player can fatigue the German fighters enough by CAP and bombing runs to increase losses to an intolerable level.
Remember that the German fighter production sent to the eastern front is around 22 on average in 1941, and therefore a loss of only 50 fighters per turn is enough to bleed the German air force.

@Stelteck: I believe most of your losses are from AA fire. I don't see spam bombing tactics on the screenshot to fatigue Axis fighters. You have also repeatedly stated that you don't like to micromanage your air force which causes reduced efficiency long term.

@Nix77 Good points&I agree with them.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:22:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77
But as I've previously stated, the WitE air war system isn't top notch, and it's easier to "play against the system" with Soviet Air Force, since they just have more aircraft available.





I feel this comment by Nix77 is true, don't get me Wong I love the game. But at this time in the game I believe the best measure would be to have a house rule of "no" airfield bombing or very limited Airfield bombing (i.e. one or two airfield bombings per section of the map (North, Center, South). In this fashion the delimiting factor alone takes care of the mass raids and an overzealous Soviet Air Campaign to gain exp.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The early air war (11/24/2017 1:35:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: Thank you for your reply and I agree with your points about over utilisation of the German fighter arm. I would also add to your list of things the axis player has to pay attention to the items "never move a fighter group by moving its base, but only by air transfer" and "stack the fighter bases with a crazy amount of mixed and heavy (not light) LW flak bataillions" and "make sure that for every one of your air force blobs has at least 150 ready fighters/fighter bombers at the end of your turn".



I wrote about this last year in my post & is exactly correct. (I will try and find the post if I get a few minutes to provide a link here but remember some post are gone forever because of being tied to a possible Pelton AAR). But yes the Germans have to pay attention to all the details involved with the Airforce in 41 because of the rapid forward movement of the battle line and supply.



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