RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (Full Version)

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EwaldvonKleist -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:09:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov highway

3. Hasty attacked succeeded and I now bring the German 20-16 to the yellow circle. This will force the Soviet 20 defense unit to the west to retreat to the NW when attacked.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/70D6BF7E247C4109B7A4F51C3487DA0B.jpg[/image]

quote:

3. Hasty attacked succeeded and I now bring the German 20-16 to the yellow circle. This will force the Soviet 20 defense unit to the west to retreat to the NW when attacked.

I really like your detailed report and graphical representation.
One question regarding this though: Will the 20 def unit no retreat NW anyway, no matter whether there is a German unit in the yellow circle or not?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:13:03 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

4. I bring up my first airpower to the front both fighters and bombers. I turn 2 sets of fighters to day mode and a set of 2 bomber squadrons to day mode. All other squadrons are on night mode. You don't need to overdo the airpower imho. I also bring up two division for the attack on the 20 point Soviet stack and calculate this could go either way. But I have plenty of units for more attacks if needed. The unit will retreat to the rail NW for sure.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C260F161A61A439AA8BECD64BC0A38BF.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:15:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov highway

3. Hasty attacked succeeded and I now bring the German 20-16 to the yellow circle. This will force the Soviet 20 defense unit to the west to retreat to the NW when attacked.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/70D6BF7E247C4109B7A4F51C3487DA0B.jpg[/image]

quote:

3. Hasty attacked succeeded and I now bring the German 20-16 to the yellow circle. This will force the Soviet 20 defense unit to the west to retreat to the NW when attacked.

I really like your detailed report and graphical representation.
One question regarding this though: Will the 20 def unit no retreat NW anyway, no matter whether there is a German unit in the yellow circle or not?


Yes, it will 100% retreat to the NW because I moved that 20-16 (17-0 after move) German inf unit to the yellow circle. If you look at step 4 which I just posted you will see that 20-16 German unit in that hex. This 100% forces that Soviet 12=20 to the NW.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:19:29 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway


5. Units retreated NW after a successful Deliberate attack by two Divisions, one a 90 exp.




[image]local://upfiles/53556/87898E4FC8FE4D058BFF856B2D1672E9.jpg[/image]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:24:18 PM)

As far as I know, moving the white centered 20-16 infantry unit to the yellow circled hexagon was not necessary to achieve the retreat direction you desired, it would do so anyway.
But my intuition regarding unit retreat paths might be just wrong.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:26:39 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

6. I bring up the Airborne Division under Model for some hasty attacks. The 1st hasty attack is against the 3=2 Soviet Division. The division will 98%(I have seen rare cases in other games where it wont) of the time retreat to the railroad to the east. I have no doubt it will do so this time too. Ground Support is still turned on for this hasty attack.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/7E6078C31FA243A089E1AEA1CC983785.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:34:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

As far as I know, moving the white centered 20-16 infantry unit to the yellow circled hexagon was not necessary to achieve the retreat direction you desired, it would do so anyway.
But my intuition regarding unit retreat paths might be just wrong.


No you are correct. I just didn't want any doubt and placed the unit there. Normally a combat suffices but sometimes it does not. weird cases I have seen.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:37:58 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

7. Attack successful and now I need a unit to displace the HQ's which could be for the units I'm hasty attacking next.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/F615079BF8EA4951B31781A3FF767A74.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:39:47 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

8. Bring up a nice shiny new SS Division & displace the HQ's

9 & 10 The airborne Division under Model hasty attacks the Soviet 5=9 Division in the swamp 1st then the 4=17 division in Pskov. BUT before I do that I turn off ground support. I know this is going to draw a ton of questions & I can't give you the answer but I know from experience to turn ground support off for hasty attacks like this. I leave it off for the hasty attack on the Pskov division too. All my test back in the day showed that attacks such as these had a higher % of success without air support when opposed by the opposite sides air and M60 is flying Interception missions. So ground support is turned off for the next two hasty attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C772E5A12E8844918A2ADF84B3B757C1.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/15/2018 11:51:46 PM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

11. both attacks succeed and units retreat as planned. I now break down the SS division into regiments and attack with just ONE regiment the unit to the east (Soviet 2=1 Division) to finalize the opening of the Pskov Highway.



[image]local://upfiles/53556/5D9303A52C174C838328F0C0EEFE1B98.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:01:20 AM)

Turn 5

Opening of the Pskov Highway

12. The highway is now open and for the celebration, we receive the "GIFT THAT KEEPS ON GIVING". I received a nice sum of fuel from the displacement but would have been nice if there was a larger sum of aircraft on the airbase. Oh well we thank you for the gift on the opening of the Pskov Highway.

****you can follow the pictures where the unit displaced and airfield bombed and my units moved. It displaced somewhere north after the last picture and I was bored of the toy and didn't follow the airbase any longer.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/17B128FE5E424E20A71A6D7834003B2E.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:09:37 AM)

Turn 5

Soviet Mad Bombing.


The RED bombing icons are eye candy on the map and are a nice Morale booster for the Soviets but really the damage by Level bombers is like getting bitten by a mosquito. I just hope not to get bitten by one carrying something lethal. Nothing to worry about on the bombing front. Do continue since this actually gives me less to worry about than people think. The average was 20ish or less with a few higher in death or damage done.

****Units will be in covered terrain as much as possible for now on and/or good entrenchments.



[image]local://upfiles/53556/9F0A4BA076CD4B908FE727919F59441D.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:09:42 AM)

Turn 5

and the South Mad Bombing!



[image]local://upfiles/53556/90B444C99B154BCF8B43BAB17C820D7F.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:14:59 AM)

Turn 5

M60 is using Interdiction since I got hit with one. Will deal with that shortly but nothing to worry about yet.





[image]local://upfiles/53556/2C5A56385AA147B09606273F295AC297.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:19:11 AM)

Turn 5

Railroad conversion for turn 5 in the North. Full steam ahead.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/3BE8CA65BFF6413AA7BB5DE4EE6E5949.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:26:59 AM)

Turn 5

Finnish Final turn 5. Finns are lethal if all are activated by mistake on the Soviet part



[image]local://upfiles/53556/E07AEB4B70204A71A8116AED9A0F4ECA.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:32:45 AM)

Turn 5

North Final turn 5.

Not saying nothing besides I could not close the pocket :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A839E2935A1246F68B60A6F1A3C96424.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:44:55 AM)

Turn 5

I see Zhukov in charge of the Western Front. Interesting.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A284369BA29B47ED9D1C655928BE5FF9.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:49:23 AM)

Turn 5 Air loses

Almost all air loses have been Finns. I'm sure next turn is not going to be nice to me. Lets wait and watch.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C5DE592275EF46CBA9EE790528BF13DD.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:54:28 AM)

Turn 5 Loses



[image]local://upfiles/53556/14F2924496364409824ACBB657DE35A6.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 12:58:05 AM)

Turn 5

Oh, before I forget. I don't know why but these units withstood another attack. Instead of multiple possible further failed attacks and then getting violent on the cat again(kicking the cat) I decided to let them rot. I have had enough of them. (I go away cursing under breath, "freaking mother freaking SOB units")

[image]local://upfiles/53556/4D581097558F4592B2D82D221F7A43EE.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 1:11:49 AM)

Turn 5 ending German OOB





[image]local://upfiles/53556/F1ED29AD047143FBAD06DEDF745D4345.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 1:18:11 AM)

Turn 5

All in all, not a bad turn. I will now put a couple turn delay into my AAR that way I can show all the fronts on what is being accomplished(not that I am accomplishing much). I'm sure M60 will have some surprises for me as I trek towards Leningrad but the way it looks he is hurting for units after the Finnish fiasco. I will wager he will never do that again, putting units on the Finnish border that is.

Stay tuned to see what happens on the way to Leningrad and the other fronts.

Thank you for reading.



timmyab -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 9:50:45 AM)

I just realized why you chose your avatar. You like to play with your food before you eat it :)

That's a shocking breakthrough in the North. All hands to the pumps at Stavka HQ.
I think you've taken the game to a new level, shame you never played Michael T. That would have given you both something to think about :)

Can somebody explain to me why Psvov is not the expected retreat direction for the 12=20 stack? Is it because Pskov is adjacent to an enemy controlled hex and the hex to the NW isn't?



821Bobo -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 1:16:11 PM)

quote:

Can somebody explain to me why Psvov is not the expected retreat direction for the 12=20 stack? Is it because Pskov is adjacent to an enemy controlled hex and the hex to the NW isn't?


Because there is already Ger division next to Pskov projecting ZOC.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 1:24:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I just realized why you chose your avatar. You like to play with your food before you eat it :)

That's a shocking breakthrough in the North. All hands to the pumps at Stavka HQ.
I think you've taken the game to a new level, shame you never played Michael T. That would have given you both something to think about :)

Can somebody explain to me why Psvov is not the expected retreat direction for the 12=20 stack? Is it because Pskov is adjacent to an enemy controlled hex and the hex to the NW isn't?


I love my panther my daughter drew for me. Now if I can just get the gif going today after I finish my turn on my Soviet game.

I don't know about taking the game to another level. I'm sure there are others that are far superior than I am in the game. I just wanted to lay out how I look at the battlefield & both the North Front and the Finnish front I just used the retreat priorities to maximize the effort put forth. If you know what to look for on retreat priorities and the placement of units at specific times on the battlefield you can gain a great deal as the Germans early in the game. Not to mention attack priorities too. Both of these go hand-in-hand.

Retreat priority is almost always to a rail hex. If you put a ZOC on a hex, from my experience, the unit will not retreat through that ZOC as a retreat priority unless it has no other choice. It will always take the route without a ZOC first. Thus the hex NW is 1st and foremost a rail hex and not in a ZOC which makes this hex preferred over Pskov hex. That is why it is imperative that when you set up a defense to know where the retreat priorities are. This then tells you which hexes to defend heavily if that makes sense.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 1:25:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

quote:

Can somebody explain to me why Psvov is not the expected retreat direction for the 12=20 stack? Is it because Pskov is adjacent to an enemy controlled hex and the hex to the NW isn't?


Because there is already Ger division next to Pskov projecting ZOC.


Yup yup.



timmyab -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 3:08:12 PM)

quote:

Because there is already Ger division next to Pskov projecting ZOC.

I knew that already Bobo, but post 155 and 157 seem to suggest that this was not necessary. That the stack would not retreat towards Pskov even if the city was not in enemy ZOC. I'm curious why that is. Would be very useful to know.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 3:28:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

Because there is already Ger division next to Pskov projecting ZOC.

I knew that already Bobo, but post 155 and 157 seem to suggest that this was not necessary. That the stack would not retreat towards Pskov even if the city was not in enemy ZOC. I'm curious why that is. Would be very useful to know.


If a unit was not placed into the hex next to Pskov there was a chance that the unit could retreat to Pskov or to the NW because of the extra factor of crossing the river to the NW on retreat. I will never take that chance and will always put a unit to exert a ZOC to force the retreat. So to answer the question is yes, without a unit next to Pskov the unit could have retreated to either spot (NW or Pskov) but the likelihood of NW was still greater given the combat next to Pskov but not a given because of retreating across a river. So the retreat could have been iffy at best without the ZOC going either way. The ZOC into Pskov locked it out as a retreat zone.

Hope this helps and I am not the best explainer of things :(. I'm sure one of the Genius bookworms we have on the forums that I love so much can put the book material to this :). I just know it because I have seen it so many times in my games and make mental notes of these types of items.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) (2/16/2018 4:47:05 PM)

quote:

bookworms we have on the forums

I hope that setting up a library of WitE-ressources qualifies me as a bookworm.
When exactly the same question came up on a German wargaming forum, I tried to put my gut feeling into a list of priorities. After I had to edit the list multiple times because of new experiences in my games I gave up on making such a list. Things that play a role are ZOCs, rail lines, movement point costs, hex ownership in near hexes and the side the retreating unit is from and maybe some items on the list I have forgotten.
My feeling is still that the NW retreat would happen with or without the 20-16 inf, but HLYA is a very great deal more experienced than me so you should not value this too high.
In any case you set up a test scen to verify this.



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