Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Pricing

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Age of Muskets] >> Pride of Nations >> RE: Pricing Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:07:57 AM   
italiamedio


Posts: 19
Joined: 4/12/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

italamedio

Matrix are people with lives, homes and (probably) families.

No matter what you think don't wish that on anyone

(responding to the post before last)


A company that would consider layoffs before product price adjustments or other alternatives, is just immorally ran, and I hope nothing good for that company.

(in reply to Wolfe1759)
Post #: 121
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:20:47 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio
My best interest are for myself, first, and then the consumers, second (as I am one). Company comes third, because I hold no shares in the company nor have a financial interest therein.


I believe in capitalism, but I also think this above quote is the key point as far as our differing priorities. I do understand your perspective, however I have my own perspective as well.

Our first interest, which is why we started this company, is to make sure that games like these continue to be made. We accomplish that by growing our business and keeping our developers in business. We believe in doing everything possible for our customers and internally we spend a lot of time and effort to do the best we can for our customers in every area from game quality to store and site software to shipping prices. but we do not believe in selling games at a price that will make our first goal impossible.

I would like to make every customer happy and keep them that way, but if your overriding goal is that you get the lowest price possible, even if it means no more games in the future, then I'll have to agree to disagree. I don't begrudge any customer looking for the best deal they can find, and we have allowed threads like that before, especially in the general discussion forum. I felt this one, in context and given the timing, had a clear ulterior motive.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to italiamedio)
Post #: 122
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:22:34 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe
Thanks for your reply, and your patience

I can buy at the Dollar price through Battlefront

I can buy at the Dollar price through GOG

I can buy at the Dollar price through Shrapnel

I'd really like it if I could buy for the Dollar price through Matrix

I'd be happy to but all my future Matrix games through AGEOD if the current PoN retail price (£17.99) is what I can expect.


The store automatically calculates its price based on your IP. If you had a US IP you would see the dollar price. In that case you'd still be responsible for the VAT yourself.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Wolfe1759)
Post #: 123
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:23:28 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio
If Matrix Games/ Slitherine laysoff employees, before it decides to stop being stubborn and lowers the price, then the people at the helm are just evil people and unmoral people. If that's the case then the company deserves to go under, and so does its investors.

If it does fail, there will be a vaccum and the developers and other publishers will fill the void.


I'm sorry, why do you assume that a post from another customer is now a definitive statement of how we operate?

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to italiamedio)
Post #: 124
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:25:10 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Signing off for the evening - we're just going around and around on this. Let's agree to disagree. I'm sorry we disappointed some of you with our decision to match the AGEOD price and the way currency conversion works in our store. I really don't have anything else to add to this.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 125
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:39:02 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio

As consumers, don't we have a right to complain? It is with all successful companies I can think of.



Your best way to complain is don't buy it. Get enough people to do that, and you'll accomplish one of three things.

1: Price drops.

2: Layoffs in the company because their revenue stream does not allow them to operate at current levels.

3: Closure of same and throwing everyone in said company out of work, along with further shrinkage of an already niche market.

But to continue to complain about the same thing, over and over, or start new threads........... They heard you the first time. And the second. And the third. And the, well, you get the idea. Repetition is not going to make it more clear.

They explained their reasoning. Accept it or not, it is your choice, but Matrix has made their position clear.


Aurelian,

If Matrix Games/ Slitherine laysoff employees, before it decides to stop being stubborn and lowers the price, then the people at the helm are just evil people and unmoral people. If that's the case then the company deserves to go under, and so does its investors.

If it does fail, there will be a vaccum and the developers and other publishers will fill the void.



Nobody said anything about Matrix laying off anyone. How *you* see it is beyond my control.



_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to italiamedio)
Post #: 126
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:53:38 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio

Erik,

Yes. Free capitalism.

Closing a thread that mentions prices lower than what you offer is a form of censorship, yes.



You obviously don't see why you're wrong.

Locking a thread is not censorship in any way. It's there for all to read.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to italiamedio)
Post #: 127
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 3:12:22 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		I want to thank Erik for getting back to me. I will be honest when I saw this game on sale for 1.99 I bought it. I have never bought a game from this company before. I played around with it and it just wasn't for me. For some reason I kept it on my hard drive. I have bought every single matrix/slitheine game for the iPad . Some I liked some I didn't . The point is I do support you. If you like this style of gameplay than yes it's worth the price they are asking. If you don't like this style then it's not. IT'S YOUR OPINION and I have stated mine. I would have paid $100 for panzer corps and $25 for each dlc. That's how much I love that game, now many would disagree and argue with me and tell me that that game is not worth that much however that's what I would have paid and I would be fine with that. So in general to sit here and argue with people I have never met is pointless. I'm not a bad guy just outspoken. We all share a common interest and that is playing wargames. Although I might disagree with Erik at times he is doing what he thinks is right for the company.

< Message edited by rogo727 -- 4/13/2013 3:19:46 AM >

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Wolfe1759)
Post #: 128
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 3:53:16 AM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline 		I've bought every game from AGEOD direct from their store since Birth Of America 1, even when I had no intention of playing for a while. I have had absolutely no problem paying their release day price and hoping that many more did the same.

However, I am almost certainly not going to be buying new AGEOD games for a while. The notion that exclusivity and a single price point can be good for a niche product in a niche industry is insane. You are guaranteeing that the audience for Ageod contracts and you will kill this franchise. Everyone is trying to get on steam, developers are writing how those flash sales have exponentially increase profit, and you've decided to go with a sales model British Leyland would have been proud of.

Good luck with that, and good luck with the price increase for a 3 year old game which has been on sale for almost the entire time, an excellent demonstration of how well you know your own market.

I only hope that AGEOD can survive their time shackled with you as they survived their time with Paradox and are still making games at the end of it.

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 129
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 5:31:47 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

Good luck with that, and good luck with the price increase for a 3 year old game which has been on sale for almost the entire time, an excellent demonstration of how well you know your own market.



I think they know the market much better than us. They have sales data to rely on. I'm sure there is a reason Matrix does not do discount sales very often. Because most grogs are older guys with the money to pay fair prices. Steam sales are great for my kids who have maybe a hundred bucks a year to spend on games. I have a very hard time believing that these complex style wargames see that big of a sale bump from flash sales. I'm sure they sell some extra units - but as was sort of mentioned in this thread, a 75% discount means you have to sell four times as many units to get the same revenue.

The biggest limiting factor for me and several other wargamers I know is not the price of the game - it is having the time to play them.

These games also don't need tons of players - a lot of them can be played 1 vs 1, so they don't have the same need for hitting a critical mass of people.



_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to dinsdale)
Post #: 130
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 6:00:06 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Gents -

I bought PON two years ago, during a Gamer's Gate summer sale. Have since purchased all the DLC's - and I have not been disappointed.

I am very much a WitP AE and WitE man; PON fills (for me)the intermediate difficulty level, a detailed treatment of a period of time that has always held my interest. After years of WitP AE's one day turns, PON's weekly turns, using the AGE system, is a lot of fun and moves right along.

I was initially put off by the AGE counters and area system, but after a serious look I found that there was detail a plenty under the hood. I am glad that I took the time to do the research.

Also have RUS, ACW, AJE and BOAII. Haven't played them all as of yet, but believe enough in the AGE system and AGEOD's Design Team standard of quality that I bought them anyways.

As a weekend only player, WitP AE eats up most of my time; periodically I will take a break and play another game - PON has the game of choice for several months.

Am very pleased that the AGEOD Team has joined Matrix and Slitherine. Most of my games have been purchased from Matrix since 2004. I firmly believe that Matrix's level (not to mention quality) of support for it's games and customers is second to none. That Matrix and Slitherine have added AGEOD to their team reflects well on AGEOD. I also think very highly of Pocus and Philippe Thibaut, based on the what I have read in the AGEOD Forums, and from personal communication with Philippe.

If I did not already own PON, there is no question that I would purchase it, and all DLC's from Matrix.

Erik - your explanations regarding the "why" of the Matrix pricing policy seems - from my perspective - to be very much on track. I sincerely wish only success for the AGEOD Team as well as Matrix and Slitherine.

Am looking forward to the ACW2 and other titles to be added to the product line.

Mac

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 131
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 6:03:47 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Feurer Krieg -

Original:

"The biggest limiting factor for me and several other wargamers I know is not the price of the game - it is having the time to play them."

Precisely my biggest challenge, Sir!

Mac

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 132
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 6:45:32 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		Bought it from matrixgames yesterday, loving it so far, WELL WORTH the money imo!


Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 133
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 8:34:50 AM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		I understand you think you're helping save war gaming by reducing the prices so more will buy. But you are wrong. We have 13 years of data that mean we know best. If your aim is to advise us please don't worry. We know this is the right path. We have seen the data from sales on other sites. It is disastrous when you do heavy discounting for niche games. Sales go up during the sale but down dramatically afterwards leading to a loss of total revenue. The loss is proportional to the depth of the sale. You can do reasonable discounts from time to time without damaging the ongoing sales, which is funnily enough what we do. The sales you have been trained to expect only benefit the store selling them as they vie for market share. They do not benefit the publisher or developer and the industry press is finally realising that and there is the start of a move away from these sales. We never believed in them and are being proved right. We know what we're doing and because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't know anything about marketing. We do, but you don't believe us and assume we are the ones who are wrong.

On the currency conversions you are not comparing like for like. In the US sales tax is very low and 0 in some places. VAT in Europe is higher. $24.99 is £17.99 according to the banking system. Ageod had set their prices in £ manually 2 years ago and when you brought it up we looked in to it and found the exchange rate was out of date. To have any other price would require us to specify manually and override it and update it every time prices changed. This is what we used to have to do and it was a logistical nightmare and none of you liked it. The difference is in the UK you are charged VAT at 20%. We can't help that. I'm sorry if you don't understand but it's the way it works.

Is there any chance we can move on now and talk about the game as sales are going well and we know a lot of you must have the game.

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Matrix Games

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 134
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 11:13:13 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline 		Price? Who cares when you're supporting one of the very best computer wargame designers (IMO anyway) You want to save a few bucks and see AGEOD go bust? You're either a big time loser or you don't care about the future of computer wargames. Bought it from Matrix this morning and it looks fantastic.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 135
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 12:24:47 PM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		Thanks for the support but let's not imply anyone who doesn't buy is a loser. Everyone needs to make their own value choice and for some PON will be beyond what they are willing to pay and that's fine. No hard feelings!

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Matrix Games

(in reply to Gizuria)
Post #: 136
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 2:59:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
Is there any chance we can move on now and talk about the game as sales are going well and we know a lot of you must have the game.


It's a fascinating game. I'm about to try Russia, with the goal of getting ready for the Great War, but not quite sure of just how to go about it.


_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 137
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 3:08:08 PM   
TheGrayMouser

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 7/12/2009
Status: offline 		You are one brave soul! I'm still reading the manual... Normally I dont care about printed manuals but sure would be handy for this game. I think for the ist time ever Im actually going to go thru the tutorials.

Hey, does anyone know how to get the map view to the "terrain" display ie green grass, mountains? Figured out every other display but cant find that one.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 138
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 4:19:51 PM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

Hey, does anyone know how to get the map view to the "terrain" display ie green grass, mountains? Figured out every other display but cant find that one.

Open your Game options and select "System" and tick "No Winter map" option.

(in reply to TheGrayMouser)
Post #: 139
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 6:08:26 PM   
OldSarge


Posts: 642
Joined: 11/25/2010
From: Albuquerque, NM
Status: offline 		I downloaded the Matrix game yesterday, got to keep the AGEOD crew supplied with crusty baguettes and cheese , so far I haven't gotten too far past the manual. Loki's well written AAR is helping out.

So far, it looks like this will be a keeper of a game.

(in reply to VPaulus)
Post #: 140
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 7:20:57 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Fascist Dog -

Love the name!

Gents -

I'm a "read all the rules" kind of guy; it did take a bit of time to do so - but (at least for me) to get the most our of PON, was not optional.

Once I had a basic understanding of how it all worked and fit together, actually doing a turn and playing the game was not difficult at all, and now flows smoothly along.

PON is not a game of RISK. The complex economic / military / social aspects of that era are well represented. While I love the military units (with all the detail and beautiful unit depictions), the economic aspects of nation building has great appeal also. And, of course, as a former Marine, exploring the unknown and claiming new territories is a great draw... <grin>

So - stick with it. It will be well worth the effort. There are a number of highly experienced players who, on the AGEOD site, have posted guides, or threads that cover most aspects of the game - you don't have to reinvent the wheel. I expect, that as time progresses, this will be a very active forum.

Am very pleased that the AGEOD Team is here with Matrix and Slitherine; we have much to look forward to.

Finally - on a more personal note, I would like to say to Philippe and Pocus: "Welcome Aboard, Gents!"

And to Philippe: Anyone who uses Scat (from Ice Age) as their avatar, is clearly a Man of Great Character and Larger Vision... <grin>

OK - time to go back to conquering the world, spreading peace and good will - my way.

Mac


< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 4/13/2013 7:23:14 PM >

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Gizuria)
Post #: 141
RE: Pricing - 4/13/2013 9:13:43 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Agreed. I bought from Ageod full price as soon as it came out. Then price drops to a few dollars. That is just the way these days. I hope Philippe and Pocus are getting a fat cut of the inflated Matrix price - in that regard I see good in it.

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 142
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 3:09:46 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline 		Yes, it probably was a bit too strong. No offense intended but I have to admit, as a long-time board wargamer who remembers the very first attempts at making computer wargames back in the late 80s and early 90s, I can't believe that wargamers don't appreciate and support companies that produce wargames of such stunning quality. I spend more than the selling price for this game on a single trip to a restaurant or a Saturday night down the pub.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 143
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 3:11:14 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Fascist Dog -

Love the name!


Yup. I'm not a Fascist and I'm not a dog. But I happen to love playing as Germany, or Prussia, in most wargames.

Oops. I appear to have clicked the wrong quote button

< Message edited by Fascist Dog -- 4/14/2013 3:12:49 AM >

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 144
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 3:34:09 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		I did support this game I did buy it. While this game isn't for me the same isn't true for others. As a wargamer you pay for what you want and while like I stated above I would have paid $100 for panzer corps. So please spare me "I can't believe" that some don't share your point of view. I'm going to give this game another go. I am reading the manual right now something I didn't do the first time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

Yes, it probably was a bit too strong. No offense intended but I have to admit, as a long-time board wargamer who remembers the very first attempts at making computer wargames back in the late 80s and early 90s, I can't believe that wargamers don't appreciate and support companies that produce wargames of such stunning quality. I spend more than the selling price for this game on a single trip to a restaurant or a Saturday night down the pub.



< Message edited by rogo727 -- 4/14/2013 3:42:43 AM >

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Gizuria)
Post #: 145
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 7:28:18 AM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		Rogo remind what price you bough the game at.

One of the things we have found is that demos for these huge games don't work well. The reason is that these games take a lot of effort to get you going. You need to put in the time to get something out but when you do you're rewarded with an extremely deep and fulfilling experience. When you pay for something you're willing to invest that time and push through a certain amount of frustration. When you get something for free you are much more likely to give up at the first hurdle or point of frustration as you've lost nothing. Someone who would enjoy the game if they paid for it, does not enjoy it if they get it for free as they never get into it enough.

Taking that a step further, someone who only paid a few dollars for the game is less likely to put in the effort required to get the most out of it. I'm wondering if this is where you are right now. If you had paid $24.99 would you have persisted when you gave up because you paid less?

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Matrix Games

(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 146
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 10:06:25 PM   
rodney727


Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		You almost make me feel guilty for buying this game at 1.99. I did mess around with it and told myself no big loss. I see I have missed some updates for this game. And what you say is also true about life in general....to get out what you but in.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Rogo remind what price you bough the game at.

One of the things we have found is that demos for these huge games don't work well. The reason is that these games take a lot of effort to get you going. You need to put in the time to get something out but when you do you're rewarded with an extremely deep and fulfilling experience. When you pay for something you're willing to invest that time and push through a certain amount of frustration. When you get something for free you are much more likely to give up at the first hurdle or point of frustration as you've lost nothing. Someone who would enjoy the game if they paid for it, does not enjoy it if they get it for free as they never get into it enough.

Taking that a step further, someone who only paid a few dollars for the game is less likely to put in the effort required to get the most out of it. I'm wondering if this is where you are right now. If you had paid $24.99 would you have persisted when you gave up because you paid less?



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 147
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 10:46:43 PM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		Sorry I didn't mean to, but my point is that when you sell something for a low price people don't value it. If the price is higher they value it more and tend to get more enjoyment from it.

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Matrix Games

(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 148
RE: Pricing - 4/14/2013 11:37:49 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
If the price is higher they value it more and tend to get more enjoyment from it.

God, I hope nobody from EA or Activision reads that.

Although on reflection they probably got there before you.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 149
RE: Pricing - 4/15/2013 1:55:24 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		That's really funny but true.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
If the price is higher they value it more and tend to get more enjoyment from it.

God, I hope nobody from EA or Activision reads that.

Although on reflection they probably got there before you.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 150
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Age of Muskets] >> Pride of Nations >> RE: Pricing Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.188