Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
…Show me the flaw…

System works just fine ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, If you have 500 Franks in Pool and 15 depleted Oscar groups you screwed the pooch production wise. You knew the Oscar groups needed Oscars but produced Franks instead.
And your saying that is the games fault?

quote:

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Very few seem able to just install the game and play it as designed and intended.

quote:

I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
...These guys don`t want to hear facts or gameplay reality, or actual historical limitations, or GG`s view of what the WITP was, they want GG-Wood to enable them do what they want to do when they want to do it...period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

quote:

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

quote:

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.
First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo.
Second, we are taking about historical production rates.
Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft.
Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement.
Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft.

So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Upgrades and production were design choices…

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

quote:

I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

Is there some basis for your analysis? Vast amounts of Production in 1944 and 45 would have been useless if a few battles in 1942 had gone the other way. If Stalingrad, Midway and/or El Alamien go the other way, perhaps Casablanca/Yalta don't produce a demand for non-conditional surrender. Maybe USSR doesn't even show. In war the most important thing to defeat is the enemy's will to go on. Mid-1942 is known as a turning-point for a reason. For a short period the war was very "winnable" for the Axis powers. If they had stayed on a roll they could have won a negotiated peace. Production didn't win the war for the Allies it just brought the war to a swifter conclusion once the outcome was decided by luck and courage in the Summer of 1942.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Guys,

Is there really a point to continuing this? Consider this, both sides... you've been heard, we understand and we've replied...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I am saddened if any feel annoyed by the silence of Matrix on this issue. I am the one who decide what, if anything we do about it. I haven't made up my mind, yet. I have been reading the various arguments and have talked with Joel Billings about it. I have had my head buried in code, hunting bugs and generally making adjustments.

After we get most of the bugs fixed, Joel and I will take a close look at it. It does not have priority right now, because it works as designed and we would rather fix the things that do not, first.

Patience Folk...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
...I do not sit here and insult the game system, matter of fact, I've been sitting here taking abuse non stop because I support the system as it sits without a handful of folks screwing it up who don't even invest the time to actually test what they preach because they are too busy preaching...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompacl
2. Political realities: The IJA and IJN didn't just feud, they actially shot at each other. And both (or at least the army) shot at the politicians who didn't follow the Army (or Navy) party line. I can only imagine what would have happened to some Bureaucrat who told the Army that they were going to have to use a NAVY fighter just because it was better. (Probably the same thing that would happen if the Bureaucrat told the Navy that Zero production had to be cut to provide more resources to build Oscars for the army).

quote:

ORIGINAL: hithere
… The game is out. I can not see any company basically re-creating any game. it took them 3 years to get this game out. there is no game company that will do something like that...but this company does listen to suggestions.....it is one of the reasons i like 2by3/Matrix so much....you can acually "talk" to the developers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

quote:

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.

First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo.
Second, we are taking about historical production rates.
Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft.
Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement.
Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft.

So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar
First, let me say again I'm not opposed to such changes, but they should be limited and such changes should take time to implement. Once a new aircraft is available it takes time to "sell" the military at large that it is truly a better product. It typically takes some sort of "disaster" to convince people that it is time to move on. Maybe they could build something into the game that would allow a unit to decide to upgrade after a period of time has passed since development of a new aircraft. If units begin to experience serious losses in the old aircraft perhaps the timetable could be shortened.

That said I love the game the way it is and don't need these changes to make me happy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate.
Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

CM - So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate.
Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?

First, comparing WitP that has more flexibility in upgrade paths with RTS is hardly in the spirit of honest discussion.

Nakajima was building these aircraft for the Army: Ki-27, Ki-43, and Ki-44.

You stated “production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship”. Could you expand on how this relates to these aircraft? What physical limitations was there that limited the tooling up of different factories? Were the major reasons for delay in fielding the Ki-43 and Ki-44 technical development and not manufacturing/materials?

My understanding is the Ki-43 and Ki-44 was in development at roughly the same time and production levels had more to do with policy than anything else: there were no physical reasons that the Ki-44 couldn’t have been produced in a moderately larger quantity.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
In WITP, there is no way to model low grade steel and other material used for Japanese a/c airframes and power plants later in the war...you simply get the plane according to the specs in the database. I'm no expert on Japanese aircraft, or aircraft in general, but there has been much written regarding these production difficulties and failings. To simply ignore them by not having some form of deployment restriction would not do the historical aspect of the sim much justice.